Mexico rejecting Illegals!


Clayton
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Apparently Mexico is both shocked and unprepared to handle a return of the illegal immigrant they sent to this nation and they are dependent on the flow of assents from the United States. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999166/posts To quote.... One baffled Mexican legislator, Leticia Amparano Gamez, asked in Spanish “how can they pass a law like this?” She went on to explain that Mexico is not prepared for the “tremendous problems” it will face as more and more Mexicans working in Arizona and sending money to their families return to hometowns in Sonora without jobs. Another member of the Mexican delegation, Representative Florencio Diaz Armenta, asked “what do we do with the repatriated?” One additional benefit of stopping illegal immigration and sending or motivating illegals to move back to the nation they came from is that it will force nations, like Mexico, to deal with the problems they cause not shuffle them off on us.
Average: 5 (3 votes)

madcali4nian
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Imagine that. Theres something wrong with this picture. A nation encouraging its people to illegaly immigrate northward only to have issues with their return. Thats like sending the kids outside to go play and locking the door behind them, or something to that effect. I would imagine that the Mexican government is hard up for remittances. I sincerely hope that Mexico would welcome back with open arms its own people, and maybe some American liberals, if only it was just possible to deport them, which is a far cry. Its still nice to have those good thoughts though.
RealAmerica
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In this article a charitable organization in Baja who relied on the Gringos for support are bemoaning the civil war at the border by the drug cartels and Federales. It seems their supporters are unwilling to brave the bullets, kidnapping, and corruption to be good Samaritans. http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_9645890
Clayton
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and it's citizens are not renown for being brave.  Just hungry for charity.
Clayton
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and it's citizens are not renown for being brave.  Just hungry for charity.
stoney4
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Mexico - "and it's citizens are not renoun for being brave. Just hungry for charity." Sounds like a racist comment to me. What a hypocrite.
Clayton
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That Hispanics were not a race.  So how could I make a "racist" comment about a group that was not a race. From my point of view it is racist, any comment about a race is by definition racist.  But by that definition any discussion of La Raza or Mexicans is racist.  I Admit that this is racist speech, and is in the catagory of any discussion of Mexicans or Hispanics-- you on the other hand seem to be inconsistant.  If a discussion of Jews is not racist then this is not racist either.
chewy
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How ya doin' Stoney? For your info:   "Americans of Latin American origin do not form a race but an "ethnicity" known as Hispanic or Latino" However,  whether one's bigotry is directed at a race or an ethnicity ......it's just as repugnant. I think this is English language minutia exploitation.  The word "racism" has been in the lexicon for such a long time and carries such a special "stigma" that it generates a impassioned response. However, to scorn or loath an ethnicity,  might sound less harmful than racism, but I suggest they are one and the same.   Just semantics thats all.
stoney4
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Chewy - Like you said, whether we're talking about Latino or hispanic is beside the point. The heading on Clayton's post was "Mexico", followed by the words "and it's citizens are not renown for being brave. Just hungry for charity." Anyone who lumps all the citizens of an entire country into a group and characterizes them in a negative light shows racist tendencies. But let's not quibble and just call Clayton what she obviously is, a xenophobe with delusions of grandure. Better?
madcali4nian
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HIJO DE LA MALA VIDA! Mira baboso, que pienses de los unos cuantos latinos legales que no estan de acuerdo con usted en el topico de imigracion?  Piense usted que ellos, los legales son racistas tambien? No fume mucho mota senorita Stoner4, es muy malo para su mente.
cowboy1539
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In many of the posts on illegal immigration it seems the anger is directed at the immigrants. If I was living in Mexico with no chance of taking care of my family and knew that I could earn in one month in the U.S. what I struggled to make all year in Mexico you can bet I would be standing on the south shore of the Rio Grande with my Floaties on. As for all the talk of the “criminal element” taking over our cities I feel that the ratio of criminals is no more than with any other groups., it’s just that the only ones that make the news are the criminals. Hard working immigrants don’t sell newspapers or Ad time on TV news. Want someone to blame. Blame the Government of Mexico for not providing for the citizens while many in the government get rich. Blame the Mexican Government for their support of illegal immigration. And blame those in the U.S. that want to by-pass immigration laws, but don’t take it out on someone that is only trying to survive. Now don’t think I am for total amnesty for the illegal immigrants, although it could be a case by case basis. If one has no criminal history and has a job to where they are not a drain on the system then they could be considered for a visa and possibly citizenship. If not, the long ride home, no matter what Mexico’s opinion is on the return of it’s citizens. As for these immigrants taking “our jobs”, I hate to tell you but a large percent of the jobs they take you couldn’t get a “Californian” to do for three times minimum wage. How many of us would get up at 0600am and stand in front of Home Depot hoping for a hard days work or do stoop labor in the produce fields for minimum pay? If you want to place blame place it where it is due. And Clayton if you will not concede your remark was "racist" then look up "prejudicial" in your Websters. I did and it fits.   That's just my opinion, but I could be wrong.
whirledpeas
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You state very clearly my sentiments as well.  I have sponsored Mexican imigrants during the Regan Amnesty back in the late 80's. I have recently been concerned about the level of crime perpetrated by gang members who are also illegal imigrants. My farm warehouse has been broken into no less than 5 times with theft amounts totaling close to $100,000 in equipment.  It is very frustrating.  Law enforcement has told me they know who is doing the crimes. He is a Norteno gang member that is illegal.  He was caught for a different crime and deported. I'd have preferred he stay in jail. My wife and I check the calendar every once in while to see how long it's been. We're just waiting for him to return. It would be easy to blame illegals for the crimes. We need a verifiable guest worker registry that allows agriculture access to workers that want to work.  We also need to get the criminals off the streets, regardless of their ethnicity, country of origin, or imigration status, and keep them in jail. Peas
cowboy1539
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Another thing that people need to realize is that gangs are not a Mexican Import but rather a U.S. Export. The only reason gangs like "MS-13" exist outside the U.S. is due to members being deported and taking the gang culture they learned in the U.S. with them. 
stoney4
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Cowboy - Whether you want to want to use the term prejudicial, racist or xenophobe, my whole point was to point out as I have on numerous occasions that Clayton is a hypocrite. I wish I had a nickle for every time Clayton has called someone else a racist, which is just one more of her tricks to bait someone into flame war on the forums. And this, coming from someone who not only belittled the entire population of Mexico but on another thread referred to Barack Obama, a 46 year old black man as "the boy". Her defense of using that term was laughable.
cowboy1539
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I know what you are saying Stoney, but it's just that replying to Clayton, Madcali4ian and others gives me a chance to drop my opinion in the mix. I know where they are coming from so most of the time the B.S. just passes me by as it's not worth me getting my blood presure up. There are a lot of other things in life to be concerned with besides what some fool writes on this forum.
madcali4nian
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Ditto.
Clayton
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Context is everything, you reaaly try to manipulate the context of my words.  In a discussion of approporiate nicknames, I suggested the Boy President.  YOu choose to interprete the term boy as a racial referance, when it could have just as easily been interpreted as the youngest candidate running. Given your interpretation, who is the racist?
Clayton
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And Clayton if you will not concede your remark was "racist" then look up "prejudicial" in your Websters. I did and it fits. IT is just as racist as Media-White's remarks about Jews- and that is the point.  The acceptance of Media White's remarks makes racism acceptable on this Board. So please inform me if that is not the standard, and at the same time codemn Media's statements as racist.
cowboy1539
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So...Clayton in your book two wrongs make a right? Even for you that last post was beyond ignorant. You have now shown your true self and let me tell you it isn't pretty. As for any other racist remarks by whoever, they all show the lack of any understanding or knowledge of the world at large. As for your foe Media-White I do not venture onto your threads of tit-for-tat so I can not speak to any posts made there. That's just my opinion, but I could be wrong.  
Clayton
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a standard for remarks. Either racism is acceptable, or it is not. Media White stated some very nasty blood libel by repeating an anti-semeitic tract known as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and claimed that Jews were responsible for the Holocaust. Another poster, Shays, claims that the statements were not racist, because Jews were not a race, and that I had no reason to be offended.  By Shays definition, hispanics are also not a race, therefore my statements technically were not racist, and expressed the same level of bigotry as Media Whites.   The point is that very few on this Board protested or thought that Media White was bigoted or racist, or even wrong. So if that is the standard for speech on this Board, so be it.  I will be as offensive as it takes for the standard to be changed, because I think it is wrong. I think individuals decide what religion or race they are, and that every race has the same degree of protection.  Another point that falls into this discussion is that Obama has called for a discussion on race, as long as race is restricted to white and black.  I think this is incredibly stupid because of the last thing we need is greater racial division. Look at the divisiveness of the simple statement I made.  I believe that is what any discussion of race will create divisiveness, because it can not be inclusive.  
leatherneck2
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For your personal education the rate that is mandated by the Federal Government and closely monitored by the UFW for field work is called the "Adverse Effect Wage Rate". For California this year that is $9.72 for unskilled labor. The same rate applies to those who work in the processing plants, ranches, or any other field that employs agricultural workers. This is over 20% higher than the State Minimum wage. While it would not be easy living on that level of income, many Californians manage to do it. As for who would do those jobs, I have done them in my youth. This was before the UFW made it virtually impossible for a non Spanish speaker to work in the industry. I know of many young men and women who are seeking these types of jobs, as well as construction and janitorial positions, now that school is out. Removing illegal immigrants from the mix would open up these positions and then we would be able to see if your assessment is correct or if my assessment that Californians would do entry level labor is in fact accurate. You are also not addressing the point that the influx of unskilled labor drives down the compensation of those seeking employment in those areas. This has an adverse effect on the economy as welfare costs increase and much of this money is taken out of circulation in the US and transferred to foreign countries. According to a Council of Foreign Relations study from 2007, illegal immigrants received $10,000,000,000.00 more in benefits and services than they paid in taxes. And this does not even include the added costs of additional unemployed "Californians" or the lost tax revenue to the Government as a result of an estimated 9% of illegal immigrant income going out of the country. Immigration is important to the sustained health of California and the United States, both economically and socially, but illegal immigration is bleeding us dry. We need meaningful immigration reform that will allow us to hire the right workers for the right tasks, but we do not need amnesty. Interestingly, I agree with your assessment of Clayton's bigoted remark, but I do not think that you can even see the bigotry in your own post.
stoney4
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Leatherneck2 - With this new format it's pretty tough to figure out who you're responding to unless you address someone specifically at the start of your post. Are you saying that there was bigotry in my post or someone else's?
leatherneck2
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I was addressing it toward Cowboy. Sorry, in my display, my response actually follows his.
madcali4nian
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Leatherneck, I agree with the points you bring up, but sadly this immigration debate will never end with one side bringing up the facts of why we need order to this mess and on the otherside of the argument, those that suppport that tired old line "comprehensive reform" will insist that we need illegals as if its a symbiotic relationship that we need to have with them.  With these politicians running for president, one thing is certain.  If either the Obamination or McShamnesty get in and give illegals what they want, which ever humanoid is the president will feel a lot of hell fire from the public.
cowboy1539
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Leatherneck, the purpose of my post was that we should not focus our ill feelings against those who only come to this country to try and provide for their families. Yes they do come illegally and in my post I did clearly state that I was against total amnesty for those that come under those conditions. I also realize that many are a drain on our system and as I said in the previous post they should be returned to Mexico.  Those that can pay their own way could be considered for a visa or possibly citizenship. No, I did not get into the economics of the influx of undocumented workers as it was not my intent for this post. I know that you have read many posts regarding an incident in which someone with a Hispanic name was involved which is followed by all the sarcastic "Illegal Immigrant" blasts. My whole reason for this posts was to say lay the blame where it is due, on the inaction of both governments. As for working ag-jobs I did spend a couple summers of my youth hoeing weeds and moving irrigation pipe in a local almond orchard. Don't want to do that again.  As for my own, as you put it "  bigotry" please lay it out for me as it is always hard to see one's own faults.
leatherneck2
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Cowboy, I understood the purpose of your post in attempting to redirect emnity toward the governments, but the fact of the matter is that the border is well marked and the rules for crossing are well understood. I categorically reject any for of amnesty for those who either entered the county illegally or illegally stayed beyond their allowed visa. That is no amnesty period. Either send them back or make life here so uncomfortable that they want to go back and try to reenter legally. Your post reads like an appologist for illegal activities. I see the world as having two well defined sides, right and wrong, with a very narrow boundary in between. I suspect that you see things in a relativistic manner where the reason that someone does something wrong may in fact excuse the act. Your bigotry lies in your characterization of "Californians" as unwilling to do menial or hard manual labor. If you have ever gone to one of the day job locations, you would find that there are in fact several citizens, resident aliens, and legal temporary workers (you know, Californians)  seeking day labor. You may also be surprised at how many get insulted when asked for proof of eligibility to work in the US.
cowboy1539
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First of all after working for 28 years as a police officer I will never be an “apologist” for illegal activities, but one thing I learned in that time is that it is not 100% black & white and that there is a gray area in some situations. That is why in many of the crime statutes there are lesser degrees for a single crime. That’s why there are minimum and maximum sentences for each degree of those crimes. Some crimes even have probation (no jail time, just keep your nose clean) as a possible punishment. And yes there are those times when I feel that the minimum is warranted. I guess we are going to have to disagree on my feeling that there just might be an illegal immigrant or two out there who would be a positive addition to our society and worth a shot at a visa. As for my “bigotry” against Californians I only agree that I should have worded it so that someone could not read into it what was not there. I realize that instead of saying “Californians” it may have more conveyed my meaning if I had stated “many Californians”, but in any case not enough willing to fill those jobs. Sorry just my opinion and I don’t have the fancy websites to back me up. In regards to any perceived disrespect of those in this country legally that too is something you miss-read into my post. My late Father-in-Law was born in Mexico and came to the U.S. on a Visa. He worked his [bleep] off and became a U.S. citizen. He also brought family members to the U.S. and each and everyone has my respect, as they, and others like them have become better citizens than some natural born citizens because they know what it took to get there. Again... That’s just my opinion, but I could be wrong.  
Nic_Lac
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Thank you cowboy! It is very easy to be upset, in our air conditoned offies, on our fancy computers, connected to the internet, maybe sipping a starbucks, and obviously living inin an amazing country were we have every privledge imaginable to critisize a group of people trying to do exactly what our ancestors did at some point in the last 200 years. (Native Americans and armed forces veterans should kick all our ungrateful [bleep] out) To call the people who come here lazy seems strange to me. They are lazy because they took proactive steps towards getting a better chance to have a happy life? I'll keep thinking about that. I'm not saying open the border by any means. Let them threw with work visas and give them tax ID numbers and use the revenue from their income taxes to help citizens go to college or get some kind of professional training. Thats my thoughts on the subject. I seriously doubt my great grandmothers and fathers had their greencard when she came threw Elis Island. So really rather than be angry, be grateful. Its is only a matter of chance we were lucky enough to be born here, again unless your a vet.  I'd be swimming the Rio Grande if I was them too!
bbadinov
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<!-- @page { size: 8.5in 11in; margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> Go down to Mexico and see the stores with help wanted signs all over the place. Little towns are looking for workers, but the workers are here, why because it is easier to take a handout with free medical and other give out programs then it is to stay home and make changes there. We have a ranch down there and we cannot find anyone to do basic work for decent money down there, Why? because the families down there are happy to survive with enough money to by tortillas and beans, with an occasional chicken, with the money their relatives send down. When they do get a job they don't show up for work all the time, because to survive down there is relatively easy. The people that come up here, spend their money to buy pickup trucks with big stereos so they will be big heroes when they return. They don't want to be citizens just take the easy bucks. People who want to work down there can find jobs and plenty of them, don't be fooled , see for yourself, before you think that Mexico is a poor land. BS, they have the best resources and have a great standard of living. Most choose to have too many kids that they cannot afford, then they make it the US citizens problem!  Enough is enough.
chewy
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(Excerpt from MadCalif4nian below) Mad(Nuts)Cali4nian: "Mira baboso, que pienses de los unos cuantos latinos legales que no estan de acuerdo con usted en el topico de imigracion.....No fume mucho mota senorita Stoner4, es muy malo para su mente"   (I'm a little off subject here, but there is a bigger issue to this stupidity.) Mad(Nuts)Cali4nian, you just continue to amaze us with your skills. Before, we were dazzled by your scholarly English language attributes (Bastard, Treasonous Commiecrats, Socialist little butt ugly troll, Commies), but now you little devil, you can entertain yourself with name calling in Spanish too.  You must be proud of your abilities.  Are there no limits to your skills? But that begs the question: are your Spanish tirades half as good as your English ones? You are not here for serious dialog. You are here to vent, maybe blow off some steam, make yourself feel good. Or maybe you just like to hear yourself bluster a bunch of incoherent insults. Are you 13 years old? As long as you and other idiots like Backrow want to call Democrats unpatriotic or socialist, or communist or whatever.....who want to see America destroyed and our cities blown up by Osama, then you can expect a lot of silly nonsense in return. You're here to insult ANYONE else that disagrees with you. You have no concept of lively civil discussion.  Your a bully.  Your nonsense on this thread is no different from the others you participate in , just a different subject. By the way, you "little butt ugly troll," if you insult me, then I reciprocate. I have never been one to sit in silence when attacked by a bunch of meatballs. Do you think you love your Country more than the rest of us do? You are wrong. Do you think you have all the answers? You are wrong again. Certainly, I don't claim to have all the answers. Me? Since buttheads like you are not here to talk seriously, then I'm here just to have fun. I look forward to your arrogant, self righteous reply.....to be cut by your amazing rapier like wit. (Spanish or English?) I should be calling 911, I'm about to be trampled by a half crazed bull called Madcali4nian, and the truck load of bull manure that goes along with it.
madcali4nian
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I cannot help but be touched.  Your whiney rant is most assuredly a badge of honor for which I will proudly display with your name on the bulls eye at the rifle range.  Don't hate me because I speak what I feel, hate me because I don't give a damn.  Peace be with you.
chewy
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Cali4nian, is that you?  Or is that the sound of my cat barfing up another hair ball? 
madcali4nian
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Maybe this time your cat will choke on the hairball Chewtoy.
Clayton
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Bet you will not see this in the main stream media, but  what appears to be Mexican Army personel committed a home invasion in Phoenix, and the Phoenix officials are trying to cover it up. http://kfyi.com/pages/local_news.html?feed=118695&article=3875223 Think Mexico is an enemy or an ally?
madcali4nian
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Mexico is neither a friend nor ally.  Given the current political climate of the Mexican government with all its corruption, assasination of police chiefs and personnel, abduction of American citizens from border towns, violence against American tourists and an ongoing drug war between drug cartels.  Need I say more?   The situation in Mexico along with illegal immivation and the drug trade poses a great threat to our sovereignty than our government and the pro illegal crowd would be willing to admit if they can.
SeaHero
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Our State and Local Governments are OUT OF CONTROL! They continue to spend OUR hard earned dollars on programs that benefit the unemployed and those here illegally. Come to California and get a FREE education, FREE medical care, and FREE social services. Who pays? Not business but YOU! It is not a surprise that WE are paying for all of this excess. The Sacramento politicians continue to bleed our wallets, School districts plead with us for more money to house illegal children (34% of all students in CA public schools) and pretend to educate them, the prison system growing and incarceration at record levels (37% of prisoners are illegals), and local cities and governments beg for new tax revenue to fund their social programs. This mortgage and economic crisis is long overdue and thankfully the beauty of the free market economy is that it becomes self-correcting and does the hard work that certainly our government would never attempt.  Don't be naive to think that illegal lllegal aliens are not a major part of this crisis as the net effect of having to provide services to a larger population has made local governments cash hungry and spend happy.  
madcali4nian
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This is just another evil example of the socialist experiment called Kalifornia.
leatherneck2
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Can you please provide a source for your statistical data? I am finding it difficult to quite believe. From what I know there are approximately 170,000 prisoners in the California Penal system and 38% of these are of Hispanic origin, the largest source for illegal immigration (http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/jtf/JTF_PrisonsJTF.pdf). For your statement that 37% of all prisoners in California are illegal immigrants, a strikingly large percentage, of Hispanic prisoners must be illegal. It defys logic that this would be so. I am also aware that there are just over 6,000,000 K-12 students in California's public schools. 34% of this would be about 2,000,000 illegal immigrants. There are about 3,000,000 Hispanic students in the system (http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/sums05.asp) so, again, I am having difficulty with reconciliating the fact that California Census figures estimate about 3,000,000 Hispanic children of K-12 age in the state (http://www.dof.ca.gov/html/DEMOGRAP/ReportsPapers/Projections/P3/P3.php), even with a significant drop-out rate I cannot maker the math seem rational. I am not being naive, I am simply seeking clarification. I agree with the general premise that we should not provide public services to those who are not legally entitled to be here, but I like to base my arguments on real, verifyable, numbers or I express them as opinions with rationale behind them.
SeaHero
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You are right I was including the total number in schools and the percent of illegals is actually 22.5%.  Here is the information source on education and illegal enrollment. The Federation for American Immigration Reform of Washington D.C. has quantified that our State is spending is spending over $12 billion dollars in educating illegal aliens. If you assume an average of $9000 per student (source ca.edu) then the total number of students in K-12 public that are illegal is 1.35 million students out a total student population of 6 million. That number is 22.5% of the total population that are in our public schools. That is the difference between a 3 school district being forced to add an extra school, and has certainly helped to create an artificial teachers shortage and a tremendous financial burden to all property tax payers.
ormondotvos
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Perhaps along with all the whining about who breaks the law, it might be worthwhile to occasionally acknowledge the collaboration of the employers of all these illegal aliens. It would seem ever so much less xenophobic and racist. Like drugs, you need both suppliers and consumers. Employers and workers.
Clayton
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The law must ensure that neither employees or employers make a profit if the employee, or the employer, is in this nation illegally.  One point that is being lost is that while most illegals are of Mexican origins, not all are. Laws that penalyze illegal aliens must( and I think will) apply to illegals of any origin. Russians, Chinese, Irish and  even Canadians  come to this nation illegally; and I do not think anyone is suggesting that they be treated differently. I do not see a racist component in this discussion. Mexico stands out in this equation because they are opening encouraging their citizens to break our laws by coming here illegally.  Currently, a major portion of Mexico's Income is from wages sent home from the US, and the US serves as a "release valve" to get rid of political unrest in Mexico. Some groups in the US are even discussing a policy of repatriating Western States to Mexico(La Raza).   This must be countered and sadly no politician seems to have the backbone to do it.  
leatherneck2
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I am not sure if you have been paying attention, but Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has been raiding businesses where there have been a number discrepancies with Social Security Numbers and gathering large numbers of illegal aliens. This action has the appologists screaming about unfair actions and separating of families. ICE has also created a whole new industry over the last 5 years by looking through SSN records and identifying the discrepancies between names adn SSNs or a single SSN being used in multiple, distant locations. That industry is the forging of false documentation so that illegal aliens can pass employers viewing of documentation in order to get a job. Oh and in June of 2006, ICE released this factsheet to the press. http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/immigration_enforcement_initiatives.htm?searchstring=employers You should read it, part deals with the focusing on employers. In fact there are a lot of references to employers being charged on the ICE website, such as this list of worksite enforcement actions: http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/worksite_cases.htm?searchstring=employers The bottom line is that ICE is going after the employers, and is making progress. That is why Canada is complaining so loudly about illegal immigration overwhelming their support resources: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/21/us/21refugees.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss. Oh, and your analogy to the drug problem is specious based on the point that a drug dealer does not check the documentation of the user, nor does the dealer falsify his product in order to sell it.
ormondotvos
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 55
Yes, I'm aware of the progress being made in enforcement of the employer side of the relationship. My son, the Marine Trucker Intellectual, is now having trouble at the Morrell Packers loading dock, because they are having trouble filling their orders due to large chunks of their labor force deciding to stay home after ICE raids. He gets there, and has to wait for four or five hours while they rush to fill the 24 pallets with yummy meat for WalMart. Trouble is, WalMart doesn't like late deliveries. I think the problem will iron itself out, as Morrell pays more, hires legally, and passes the costs on to WalMart, and thence, us.   The example isn't specious. You're isolating one part of it. I was using it as an example of the fallacies of the drug war. Legalize drugs, over the dead bodies of Big Pharma and Big Alcohol (Budweiser dealerships paying for presidential candidates?) and watch the massive profits disappear, along with a huge swath of gang violence, street crime, and violent home invasions by crackheads. Use the money from the drug wars to fund rehabilitation in limited security half-way houses. Same thing, legalize more immigrants if they're so important to our economy. We need the young immigrants to replace our aging boomer population. These are simple economic solutions, exacerbated by trivial abstract ranting. I have no problem with humans moving to the USA, since we don't have a culture to dilute.   Revoke Corporate Personhood
Clayton
Clayton's picture

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1138
you made requires comment, even though it was only a minor part of your response. I have no problem with humans moving to the USA, since we don't have a culture to dilute. You really believe that The United States does not have a culture? It would seem to be a statement of disdain and belittlement of the US. Do you consider yourself an American, and if so why? If you really do not like us(the rest of the US) why stay in the US? Why not relocate to a nation more consistant with your leftist views? If you are so anti-American, why live in the US?
ormondotvos
ormondotvos's picture

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 55
I think the Constitution is inspired. I'd love if we followed it. About culture: define it, and then make the USA, the whole USA, fit that definition. We don't have a culture. We have a culture like a junkyard is a parts warehouse. You can find everything, but there's no culture. I don't regard NASCAR, lynchings, cowboys, and jazz as culture, but just random artifacts resulting from too much individualism and too little understanding of social structure. Probably caused by too many immigrants from too many countries. We're an undigested salad in the rumen of the great American cow. But you gotta love it. But to make it work, you still need to Revoke Corporate Personhood
leatherneck2
leatherneck2's picture

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 132
You have provided an interesting mix of items, and I am wondering what it says about your perception of American culture. Let's see, which of these is not like the others? NASCAR - The National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing. Since the first auto race in June 1895, Americans have loved to watch men in machines push it as fast as possible. This says much about American culture, the value that we have for courage and innovation. I would accept this. The rest of the world followed and auto racing has truly become an international affair, though it did originate in the US. Lynchings - The act of a mob putting an individual to death without due process of law. The term is derived from "Lynch law" which referred to the actions of a Captain Charles Lynch in Pittsylvania Co, VA. Capt Lynch organized group of Justices and Militia officers to act in concert to suppress a rebellion and punish lawless behavior by corporal means during the revolutionary war. Hanging is the extreme extent of this. Capt Lynch's group was acting upon the basis of English Common Law and was copying the formation of Vigilance Committees in the various municipalities and parishes of Britain. The term is American, but the practice is Colonial era British. The Cowboy is a symbol of Americanism and is viewed largely as an outgrowth of the rugged expansion of the US into the western region of the America's. The Cowboy symbolizes the individualistic nature of Americans, the rugged determination to seek out new lands and to live free. While there are Cowboys in other areas, such as Argentina, Mexico, and Canada, the American cowboy is held up internationally as uniquely representative of those qualities. Jazz originated in New Orleans as an amalgamation of European musical structures and African tribal rhythms. Jazz celebrates breaking from the pack and establishing a unique "sound" that the artist can claim as all their own, while still following some basic rules. It is another of those things that had it's origins in the United States and found itself being adopted and copied internationally. So we have three things that speak to individualism and freedom and one that speaks to mob mentality and subjugation to the "group". I do not believe that these are "random artifacts" that you have selected. I think that you intend to make a point by specifically using lynching as one of your examples and then filled in around it with things that you felt might allow it to slip by. On a final note, I completely disagree with your assertion that "We're an undigested salad in the rumen of the great American cow". We have a very real and definable culture that is under attack from a number of points. We have a culture of self determination, just go to any city hall meeting and listen to people expressing their opinions and demanding a voice in governance. We have a culture of freedom, where we do not want someone else telling us what to do, say, think, or act. We have a culture of innovation, as evidenced by the number patents  and the number of Nobel Prizes awarded to American scientists. We have a cultural disposition to act as opposed to wait fro other to act. And finally we have a cultural awareness as a people dedicated to the rule of law and protection of the minority. Just because we have regional and local differences, do not think that we do not have a very real and identifiable culture. And don't make the mistake of confusing tradition with culture, they are different things, different ethnic and racial groups have specific traditions that are unique to them, but that does not prevent them from participating fully within the culture of the United States.  
ormondotvos
ormondotvos's picture

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 55
Here's my context. Paul Shepard, "Nature and Madness, Susan Blackmore, "The Meme Machine,"  Desmond Morris "The Naked Ape," Steven Pinker "The Blank Slate," Toobey and Cosmides "The Adapted Mind," and because you sound like you can handle it, "The Freed