This poll is poor because it leaves out the correct answer: a combination of genetics and early environmental factors, probably family dynamics. But I will yield the floor to ohso, an expert in the field of homosexuality.
I would love to hear those who voted for "Deliberate Choice" explain the factual basis for their votes. Are any of these people actually gay? If not, did they 'deliberately choose' to be heterosexual? Doesn't it seem highly illogical that anyone would actually CHOOSE to be homosexual, given the hatred, scorn and outright discrimination that some segments of society direct toward those they perceive to be so? The truth is, people do not 'deliberately choose' to be gay, and those who claim otherwise are, for the most part, people who believe homosexuality to be morally repugnant and thus are in part responsible for the marginalization and exclusion from mainstream society that the large majority of homosexuals in the US experience throughout their lives.
I don't think it's "peer pressure," either-- I never heard of gay high-school kids inviting the less-popular teenagers to gay-themed parties and trying to get them to join the team. We need a real expert to help us out here. Someone who has spent a great deal of his adult life studying gayness.
<Someone who has spent a great deal of his adult life studying gayness.>
I don't think that spending a great deal of one's adult life being neurotically obsessed with what consenting people do in the privacy of their bedrooms should be counted as "studying gayness".
The only ones I know of who have homosexual relations by choice have been abused as children. I counseled a man (now deceased) who started homosexual relations with a brother (who was homosexual --- now deceased) because his parents caught him fooling around with a female cousin and beat the hell out of him. He also fondled a younger sister (consentually) and his parents never caught him. So he led a bi-sexual life, and molested children (both female and male) but it brought him a lot of misery in his married life. Fortunately he had a wife who loved him inspite of his problem. As far as I know he was able to control his urges in the last 15 years of his life (this is the period in which we counseled him). However, we watched him closely and helped him avoid dangerous situations.
I guess I stumbled into this thread by mistake. I thought someone really wanted to know how to become gay and was looking for advice. I was curious too. There's such wealth of knowledge here on the forums.
My friend is a little worried about his grandson. That he may become, you know...
Is there anything he can do? Take him fishing? Or to a ballgame? Give him a Playboy? Maybe he could ask his son-in-law to make a big show about being the"man of the house." You know, say things like, "Get me a beer, woman!" Or would that backfire?
I really don't think there's anything you can do about it. I would suggest building his self-esteem. Make sure he knows you love him regardless. There are some religious groups which "welcome and affirm" gay people. "Welcoming and Affirming Baptist"; many UCC churches do not discriminate and some Episcopal churches welcome gays.
To the person who said this was a poor poll because it didn't list the correct answer---I'm afraid I disagree with you. I don't think it's possible that genes have anything to do with becoming gay. If it were Genetics, it would be more widespread in certan populations. If it were environmental, then it would be a choice. I vote for a prenatal cause.
It cannot be a condition to be condemned, because the individual has no choice in the matter. The only option the individual has is not to act on this pre-disposition, and how many can do that. The sex-drive is so powerful that the only thing society can do is try to make provision for its fulfillment.
I think you have my name, so you can contact me personally if you wish.
Maybe you can explain a few things for me. Why would gayness be more widespread in certain populations if it had a genetic cause? Do you have data on the prevalence of the gay condition in various places of the world?
At first glance, it may seem that any gay genes would be eradicated from the population by natural selection, since gays father fewer children. But biology can be more complex than that. There may be certain genes that give men an advantage in relating to and gaining sexual access to women. Genes that enable them buy women more stylish shoes, help them decorate their homes, give them more appealing flower arrangements, and engage in lengthy conversations about feelings. However, if too many of these genes are passed on to the same man, he loses his sexual desire for women and becomes gay instead.
A simple analogy is the sickle-cell anemia gene. If you have one copy, you are immune to malaria, and evolutionary advantage. But if you get two copies, you get sickle-cell anemia, a disadvantage. The advantage of immunity to a common disease keeps the gene common in the overall gene pool of the population, even if those who have the bad luck to end up with two copies get the disease.
So by writing, "If it were Genetics, it would be more widespread in certain populations," what are you claiming?
I am not an expert on genetics and I assume that you are not either. However, you did originate this poll, and the first choice you gave was 'prenatal', not 'genetics' or 'genes'. To me, 'prenatal' encompasses more than simply 'genetics' and, based on the poll results thus far, it appears that the respondents interpreted the poll acordingly. If you meant to include 'genetics' as a possible response, why did you not write the poll to say so?
My understanding of genetics is that genetic factors extend beyond the notion that there is one gene, or a group of genes, that determine one particular trait or characteristic. Genes can also determine the physiological makeup of an individual, and I recall there have been studies which have found common physiological differences in individuals who are identified as being gay. Those differences are thought to be factors in determining whether a particular individual does in fact become a gay person. The significance of such a finding would be to establish that being gay is not only not a conscious choice, it is not caused, at least totally, by external influences attributable to societal or environmental factors. In other words, if you are male and your mommy dressed you in girl's clothes throughout your childhood and adolescence, that in and of itself does not mean that you will grow up to be gay. If these findings are proved true, they certainly would be of great importance in beating down the notion that gay people are sinners in the eyes of god.
Posted on Saturday, 6/27/2009 - 10:03 a.m. PDT — by Miles Wesner
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Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
This poll is poor because it leaves out the correct answer: a combination of genetics and early environmental factors, probably family dynamics. But I will yield the floor to ohso, an expert in the field of homosexuality.
Joined: Jul 2007
Current Posts: 41
Move to the CASTRO....they'll be glad to show you!
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 769
I would love to hear those who voted for "Deliberate Choice" explain the factual basis for their votes. Are any of these people actually gay? If not, did they 'deliberately choose' to be heterosexual? Doesn't it seem highly illogical that anyone would actually CHOOSE to be homosexual, given the hatred, scorn and outright discrimination that some segments of society direct toward those they perceive to be so? The truth is, people do not 'deliberately choose' to be gay, and those who claim otherwise are, for the most part, people who believe homosexuality to be morally repugnant and thus are in part responsible for the marginalization and exclusion from mainstream society that the large majority of homosexuals in the US experience throughout their lives.
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
I don't think it's "peer pressure," either-- I never heard of gay high-school kids inviting the less-popular teenagers to gay-themed parties and trying to get them to join the team. We need a real expert to help us out here. Someone who has spent a great deal of his adult life studying gayness.
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 769
<Someone who has spent a great deal of his adult life studying gayness.>
I don't think that spending a great deal of one's adult life being neurotically obsessed with what consenting people do in the privacy of their bedrooms should be counted as "studying gayness".
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
Nevertheless, we need ohso on this thread.
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 769
About as much as we all need a bad case of hemorrhoids.
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
Looks like he's not showing up...
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 4
The only ones I know of who have homosexual relations by choice have been abused as children. I counseled a man (now deceased) who started homosexual relations with a brother (who was homosexual --- now deceased) because his parents caught him fooling around with a female cousin and beat the hell out of him. He also fondled a younger sister (consentually) and his parents never caught him. So he led a bi-sexual life, and molested children (both female and male) but it brought him a lot of misery in his married life. Fortunately he had a wife who loved him inspite of his problem. As far as I know he was able to control his urges in the last 15 years of his life (this is the period in which we counseled him). However, we watched him closely and helped him avoid dangerous situations.
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 3156
I guess I stumbled into this thread by mistake. I thought someone really wanted to know how to become gay and was looking for advice. I was curious too. There's such wealth of knowledge here on the forums.
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 769
Stoney, were you looking to give advice, or get it? :)
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Current Posts: 3156
Neither really. Just curious about what the answers would be.
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Current Posts: 153
whoops..........wrong room Is that you Stoney ?????what are you doing in here..? J/K LOL
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
My friend is a little worried about his grandson. That he may become, you know...
Is there anything he can do? Take him fishing? Or to a ballgame? Give him a Playboy? Maybe he could ask his son-in-law to make a big show about being the"man of the house." You know, say things like, "Get me a beer, woman!" Or would that backfire?
I wish ohso were here. He would know what to do.
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 3156
The nature vs nurture conundrum. I suppose it could manifest itself anytime in one's life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A8U6aUPW48
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 4
I really don't think there's anything you can do about it. I would suggest building his self-esteem. Make sure he knows you love him regardless. There are some religious groups which "welcome and affirm" gay people. "Welcoming and Affirming Baptist"; many UCC churches do not discriminate and some Episcopal churches welcome gays.
Whatever you do, don't condemn him.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 4
To the person who said this was a poor poll because it didn't list the correct answer---I'm afraid I disagree with you. I don't think it's possible that genes have anything to do with becoming gay. If it were Genetics, it would be more widespread in certan populations. If it were environmental, then it would be a choice. I vote for a prenatal cause.
It cannot be a condition to be condemned, because the individual has no choice in the matter. The only option the individual has is not to act on this pre-disposition, and how many can do that. The sex-drive is so powerful that the only thing society can do is try to make provision for its fulfillment.
I think you have my name, so you can contact me personally if you wish.
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
Maybe you can explain a few things for me. Why would gayness be more widespread in certain populations if it had a genetic cause? Do you have data on the prevalence of the gay condition in various places of the world?
At first glance, it may seem that any gay genes would be eradicated from the population by natural selection, since gays father fewer children. But biology can be more complex than that. There may be certain genes that give men an advantage in relating to and gaining sexual access to women. Genes that enable them buy women more stylish shoes, help them decorate their homes, give them more appealing flower arrangements, and engage in lengthy conversations about feelings. However, if too many of these genes are passed on to the same man, he loses his sexual desire for women and becomes gay instead.
A simple analogy is the sickle-cell anemia gene. If you have one copy, you are immune to malaria, and evolutionary advantage. But if you get two copies, you get sickle-cell anemia, a disadvantage. The advantage of immunity to a common disease keeps the gene common in the overall gene pool of the population, even if those who have the bad luck to end up with two copies get the disease.
So by writing, "If it were Genetics, it would be more widespread in certain populations," what are you claiming?
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 769
I am not an expert on genetics and I assume that you are not either. However, you did originate this poll, and the first choice you gave was 'prenatal', not 'genetics' or 'genes'. To me, 'prenatal' encompasses more than simply 'genetics' and, based on the poll results thus far, it appears that the respondents interpreted the poll acordingly. If you meant to include 'genetics' as a possible response, why did you not write the poll to say so?
My understanding of genetics is that genetic factors extend beyond the notion that there is one gene, or a group of genes, that determine one particular trait or characteristic. Genes can also determine the physiological makeup of an individual, and I recall there have been studies which have found common physiological differences in individuals who are identified as being gay. Those differences are thought to be factors in determining whether a particular individual does in fact become a gay person. The significance of such a finding would be to establish that being gay is not only not a conscious choice, it is not caused, at least totally, by external influences attributable to societal or environmental factors. In other words, if you are male and your mommy dressed you in girl's clothes throughout your childhood and adolescence, that in and of itself does not mean that you will grow up to be gay. If these findings are proved true, they certainly would be of great importance in beating down the notion that gay people are sinners in the eyes of god.