Posted on Wed, 04/23/2008 - 22:37 — by cowboy1539
A lot of people seem to think that issuing concealed weapon permits to every Tom, Dick, and Harry will solve the crime problem. Not only will that not happen but are all of you really ready to accept the hassle and responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm in public?
The easy part is just trying to figure out where to carry it so it doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb but you can still get to it if needed. Think summer clothes or indoor dress. Even in the winter it can be a pain.
Then comes the time and effort to become proficient in the use and operation of your gun. This will come in handy for court when you get sued. (See below).
Now comes the hard part. What do you do if you are out somewhere and some dude sticks a gun in your face and demands all you got? Go for the gun and probably get shot before you get it out or just give him all you got (and that includes your nice new gun). Sitting in a restaurant with the family when the bad guys run in. Do you sit there and hope they don’t take your nice new gun along with your wallet or do you start a gun fight and hope that a family member, innocent bystander, or even yourself doesn’t take a stray round between the eyes? It’s not like TV folks, the good guy doesn’t always win.
Also, along with the gun permit ask your insurance agent how much a liability rider on your homeowners will cost because if you ever shoot somebody you will need it. If some innocent person gets shot as a result of your action you might as well just sign everything you own over to their family and it doesn’t matter if it was your bullet. You no doubt have more assets than the bad guy so you get sued. Even if it was a clean shooting and only the bad guy gets shot, you still get sued. The family might as well make some money off their dearly departed (at least as far as the lawyers are concerned). And even worse if it wasn’t a clean shooting you will need the lawyer for the criminal charges.
And when the gun smoke clears its not like Dirty Harry where you blast the bad guy and then walk down the middle of the street with a hotdog in one hand and your 44 mag in the other. You just took a human life and if that doesn’t bother you then as far as I’m concerned you are the last person that needs to have a gun permit.
Before police officers are put out on the street with a gun they have about 9 months worth of training and then there’s the extensive background investigation, a polygraph, and psychological exam. My feeling is that before a weapon permit is issued there should be a mandatory period of training, along with the background check, polygraph, and psychological exam at the applicant's expense. And this is after they prove a real need for the permit, not just a misguided wish to be a hero.
That's just my opinion, but I could be wrong.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
Great post Cowboy. Thanks for laying it out like that although you do realize that it's going to go in one ear and out the other of a lot of the Rambos out there that want to pack some heat. I think we can take some consolation in knowing that a lot of what we hear and read on these forums is just a lot of talk. It's easy to sound tough typing away at a keyboard and granted, a lot of it is frustration. We're all frustrated and I'll admit that those thoughts of taking matters into my own hands has crossed my mind more than once but after you take a deep breath and take into consideration the reality of what the consequences might be, as you so clearly explained, the insanity of more guns in the public's hands comes into focus, regardless of the statistics some people throw out about some small community down in Texas or Georgia where gun ownership is in fashion.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 239
occurred in your home in the middle of the night???. Sometimes there is only several minutes to save your family. Have you thought of that, guess you and your family have not been victims of crime. Stoney4 you take that extra long breath and meditate, when your front door is busted down, I'll use my firearm whenenver necessary to protect my family. Have you thought about that. Such sophmoric, immature comments "Its easy to sound tough typing away at a keyboard" reality check....many have encountered violent crimes before moving to suburbia.
Liberals and Stony4 love to talk about "Rambo" like actions and gun control, until crime hits their family. In MA an entire family was murdered after the daughters and wife were raped by two ex cons in front of the husband. If he had a gun the father may have been able to stop this heinous crime as it occurred... This is the reality in the US as crime escalates.
"Oh what a tangled web they weave, when they set out to deceive.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 43
You must really live in fear. A home invasion/home defense robbery scenario is far different , that does not require any special permits for handgun ownership. Pulling a pistol from your nightstand and defending your home and family is not the same as 50 people sitting inside a bar drinking alcohol being strapped to their gills. You gun nuts take something easy and make it very difficult. The Government wants to make it illegal for you to own a 20 mm cannon and you start hourding guns and dive under your kitchen tables while wearing pots over your skulls while waiting for the Feds to ram your front doors with Bulldozers
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 462
Clearly, Bbentwood is one of those folks we have used as an example, of who should never have a concealed weapons permit. The man is too angry.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2459
This might be a good time to alert folks that there are a couple events where you can ask questions and get information about this hot issue from the experts.
Lt. Marchoke from Antioch PD is hosting Coffee with the Cops this Saturday at Bagel Street Cafe on Lonetree. I would encourage BBrentwood to attend because I'm sure the topic of vigilantism will be brought up and the officer will further discuss why it has no place in our society. My wife seems to recall Lt. Marchoke went to Hawaii as a chaperone on the Hawaii graduation trip for AHS in the mid 80's, so he's been around and has a lot of experience as a cop.
On the flipside, Stoney might want to attend the Glock factory sponsored event also this Saturday at "Guns, Fishing, and other Stuff," from 10 to 5 PM at their store on Butcher Road in Vacaville. The ad in the Times says, "Dave Mallery, Glock factory rep will let you shoot any Glock model. 5 shots for only $3 - Shoot them all! 100 guns in stock! Buy a Glock and get a hat or a shirt free!" The part that gets me is the ad says, "Any standard Glock Model, $499.97." That's a lot of money! It doesn't seem fair the public has to pay $500 bucks when I heard the bad guys can buy a slightly used one on the streets for as low as $15. Something is definitely wrong with that picture and as usual the bad guys are getting a break and law abiding consumers are getting ripped off.
Stoney, I can't go this Saturday, but I was going to give you some money to buy me a green one, but for $500 bucks, forget it! I wonder what's on the free t-shirt? "I hope Target isn't sponsoring the event and they have their big Target logo on the back. Better not wear it until you get home with all the amateurs there taking 5 shots for 3 bucks!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 239
has been notified. You have broken the CC Times rules of engagement. You go have coffee with the COPS....I have many times in the past. Maybe you will learn something Bazooka Joe. Those violent video games can't teach you everything. Touche.
"Oh what a tangled web they weave, when they set out to deceive.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 239
I and many others have been victims of crime. You do not know what are talking about. And you sir are to clueless to even hold a gun. Your agenda is noted... Have you ever held or shot a gun, or do you know anyone who was the victim of a heinous crime...
Liberalism is a mental disorder Chewy.... Anger is a natural emotion, unless your strung out on Prozac?? Now go meditate your way to a Utopian world...your personal attack did not work.
"Oh what a tangled web they weave, when they set out to deceive.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 462
Fired expert in the Army during the sixties. Couldn't do it now though....eyesight less than great. What's prozac? Brentwood, anger is something to be controlled, lest we all shoot one another. And you got it bad.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 897
So were you an expert who was fired or an expert at firing? Until you aquire a better level of communication you are meaningless bag of socialist hot air. But then again, you are typical meaningless bag of socialist hot air, aren't you.
Are your speaking into a bunch of balloons to float yourself out to sea to raise just oodles of money? I might pay to see you became shark bait.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 219
i think that if we had gun laws like arizona crime might be detered however we have a whole lot more people here i can see where it could get hairy carrying and using a weapon . heres my deal i dont take my weapon with me anywhere it stays at home tucked in its sole purpose is to stop an attacker coming through either my front door or bedroom door with all intents to harm me or my family,period
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2459
People see those takeover videos and it's really scary. It's appalling, appears indefensible, and I think people want to figure out a way to stop it when it's in progress. I'm sure most people understand that even if there was a trained officer in street clothes, he probably wouldn't get an opportunity to do much about it.
It's important to realize the Oakland PD has made some arrests in one of the restaurant robberies and it would be great if there is a connection and they bust the whole ring that has been doing those crimes. It's not as gratifying as having Dirty Harry shoot all the bad guys while the crime is in progress because the public sees that as a much bigger deterrent for the bad guys and their friends to realize thay could get killed or maimed on the spot which is what most the public feels is a better punishment than going through the legal system.
But therein lies the problem. The legal system has to step it up because even if it isn't entirely true, the public's perception is that the legal system isn't doing enough in the punishment department. I know a guy who works for one of those companies that works in conjunction with probational officers to rehabilitate and administer sentencing for youths, and he tells me the Contra Costa justice system is actually tough on adolescent crime and handling out stiff penalties. But gosh, the public hears about all the long rap sheets when an offender gets caught and it sure doesn't appear that way. If they want to stop all the vigilante talk, and I agree with Stoney that most of it is just that - talk, they need to work on the public's perception that the system is too lenient and show that they are being tough on violent youth crime like those in the survelance videos. The public doesn't care what strike they are on when you see pictures of them waiving guns around and holding up to someone's head. And who cares if they are not an adult yet? They have loaded guns for crying out loud.
The cops seem to be doing a good job catching the bad guys and working with business owners to help them ensure the public's safety.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
I'm not against having a gun at home for protection, although I do feel that any gun owner should be well trained on the use and operation of their gun. I have the right to carry a concealed gun in public but the last time I had it out and about was last June when I tossed it under the seat of my car for a drive to Montana. The point that I was trying to get across is that guns don't solve anything and are only a last resort, and even then can cause more harm than good.
That's just my opinion, but I could be Wrong.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 239
Since your a former law enforcement officer, you may believe that only the police should have guns??? Our first amendment rights enable every citizen to own a legal firearm it is a constitutional right to bear arms and to protect ones' family. As an intelligent individual you should also know that he standards for entry into the Police Depts locally have been .....LOWERED...... In the past you could never have used any drugs, had relatives that used drugs.... had felon relatives or parents in prison........that is not the case now.
Back East ad in many police departments.... you need a college degree in Criminal Justice before going to any academy, in CA you only need a G.E.D. to apply as an officer now in many cities... The standards have been lowered >>>>>drastically>>>>> to be politically correct and we have seen the results of that in some police departments. Times have changed since you were an officer. Even with the 9months training, psych profile , background checks.....and training we have had a surge of problems involving guns and officers..... Oakland "The Riders Case", on officer fled to Mexico currently wanted on an outstanding Federal warrant, a vice squad caught at a brothel in SL with a van full of guns and money the unit disbanded and closed, another officer of the law caught in Santa Rosa with a semi-automatic weapon and other guns looking for his estranged wife, Fajita-gate violence by an off duty officer in San Francisco, another police officer, carrying a gun...and preying on Asian women in Oaklands Chinatown, stopping them for traffic infractions then asking for sexual favors ... all reported by the media in the last 5yrs...Recall seeing most of the articles in the SF chronicle.
The training, the background checks, even the title of "police officer", really means nothing....it is the individual owning the gun and their state of mind I have just provided numerous cases were a police officer carrying a gun or guns was involved in misuse and worse. In fact an ordinary citizen may be more judicious in using a gun not having any "power" related issues or a corrupt union to cover up their actions.
To get on track, in states with lots of concealed weapons licenses there is less crime, the criminal never know who will fight back, hence crime is lessened. I personally know women in TX that have saved their lives and their familie from rapists and criminals because they knew how to shoot a gun and carried one. TX and OK both have lower crime rates and both have lax concealed gun laws. England on the other hand does not even allow "bobbies" Officers to carry guns....only clubs. Violent crime is rampant in London and has steadily increased over the last 2 decades.... Japan has strict gun laws and little crime, in Japan it is their cultural societal.....upbringing....they are not a violent people.
Finally, living in certain Bay Area Cities should be the only requirement for a gun permit, period. If Law Enforcement can't control the crime, citizens need to protect themselves. Response times are abissmal in crime ridden areas. It nice to think an officer will save the day, but if it takes 45minutes in high crime areas....to reach an attack victim there will be no victim to save when the squad car finally arrives.....
Some excellent food for thought. The Realist....
"oh what a tangles web they weave when they set out to deceive" "Gurtie I'm going squirrel huntin.....save me some viddles....
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
You may want to check some of your facts, California has some of the highest hiring standards for police officers nation wide, don't confuse the minimum standards set by P.O.S.T. back in the late 60's and early 70's to aid Vietnam vetrans in finding employment,(they weren't too popular back then) with the standards set by individual cities, most do now require at least an AA. There are more police officers in London carrying firearms now then anytime since WW2, oh and lets not forget that the cops in airports in nearly every major city in Europe is carrying a submachine gun.
Oh yeah 2nd amendment "right to keep and bear arms" 1st amendment "freedom of speech".
I am curious where do you get your statistics on response times?
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 239
only bill clubs and now mace. Elite groups and anti-terrorist groups do carry guns. but not the beat officers. Today in 2008....Oakland and many other cities in Southern CA only require a GED to gain entrance into a police academy. Go read the job announcements it's there in black and white. I have been to Europe and have seen the semi automatic guns at the airports in Milan, Frankfurt, Geneva and Rome, that statement is true.
P5Ret: "MOST DUE NOW REQUIRE AN AA Degree, ?? so my statement is correct. Why are you qualifying yours??
Like my posting stated Back East the best police departments require a four year degree in Criminal Justice, no GED's, no AA degrees. Here in CA some police departments many in the Bay area only require a GED equivalancy. Not even a high school diploma, and many now allow individuals who have used drugs, or have felons in their families....... Maybe its time to raise the standards instead of always lowering the standards in CA :} That could circumvent many of the problems we have seen lately here in the Bay area. That is my opinion and the opinion of many experts in law enforcement .....
"Oh what a tangled web they weave, when they set out to deceive.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
My information is from two friends in DSS who are both stationed in London, and work very closely with the Metropolitian Police Service and since I trust them and their opinion more than yours I am going to believe them. Yes the majority of Officers in the Met are basically unarmed but there are quite a few who are armed and not just special units each police force in the UK has a firearms unit armed patrol cops. If you don't beleive me look it up on Wikpedia. Having been to most of the airports that you name and a few you didn't, and having seen MP5's in London, Berlin, and Dublin, and Beretta Mod12's in Rome and Venice I am going to assume that you wouldn't know the difference between a semi-auto and a submachine gun if you had it in front of you.
You are confusing education with qualification to do the job, and being educated will not make you a good cop. I have seen trainees with masters degrees fail out of training. Oh and the best police departments like who New York, who has a long history of corruption, or Baltimore, or maybe you mean Detroit, or New Orleans where an officer commited a robbery and multiple murders in uniform, and was ID'd by the one surviving victim when she showed up at the scene to "help" with the investigation.
What exactly do having relatives with criminal records have to do with hiring someone, I don't make the connection here, you are hiring an individual not his/her family. Just because you may have seen or heard that "prior drug usage may not disqualify" someone, that statment was put on most job anouncments for the people who may have tried marijuana back in high school and never did it again, someone figured that they were losing well qualified candidated because they lied about having tried smoking grass once and failed a polygraph. Face it you have no knowledge of what it takes to be hired on any police agency, and are just reading the minimum qualifications. To be admitted into an academy is not being hired, very few agencies run their own academy, Oakland does San Francisco does, but they are all tried to a local community college, and you do not have to be hired to attend, San Jose the largest city in the bay area does not run it's own academy, it is run by the South Bay Regional Training Center located at Evergreen Community College. The academy out here was at Los Medanos until a few years back when it moved to a bigger space at the Pittsburg Marina. So again check your facts before you hold them up as gospel truth.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
Oh goody!!! A debate about gun ownership and even Clayton is here to let us all know how wrong we are. This is too good to be true. I think I'll just sit back, make some popcorn and watch. I was going to start a drinking game where I'd take a shot every time BBrentwood or Clayton misspelled a word but tomorrow is a work day and I can't afford a hangover. Besides, the phrase "taking a shot" doesn't quite seem appropriate here.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2459
If it's 5 shots for $3.00, count me in! Are you offering free T-shirts and hats too?
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
LOL!!!!!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
First off you are wrong about my beliefs. I do believe that citizens have the right to gun ownership and I am against the gun control lobby that seems to want to take all guns away from citizens. I think that you will find that most law enforcement officers also feel that way. I will say that I am against the ownership of some guns (assualt rifles, full auto fire arms, cheap saturday night specials) by the general population
As for your list of officer misconduct I also agree that there have been bad apples but police departments weed these officers out as soon as possible. Also most officers are disgusted by the actions of these few. When I first saw the "Rodney King" video on TV my first thought was "OH CRAP" because I knew that this was going to make my job that much harder. I can't count the number of times I heard "Rodney King...Rodney King" when I had to deal with a physically aggressive suspect. I don't know what you do for a living but I bet I could find a higher number of Bad Apples in your line of work than mine. Just how many news reports have we seen in the last year of teachers, doctors, lawyers, and even religious leaders involved in incidents that shocked the public. You have to remember that cops are just normal people doing an abnormal job.
As for the "lowering of standards" all officers in California must meet the minimun standards set by P.O.S.T. (Police Officers Standards and Training). This is a state organization and local jurisdictions MUST meet their standards not only in hiring but in on-giong advanced officer training. For the 28 years I was a police officer P.O.S.T. never lowered it's standards but rather increased them by a lagre amount. There are many police departments in California that require a college degree either at the time of hire or with-in a specified time after being hired. Yes, if you do read the employment fliers from many departments the minimum requirements will state "21 years old, high school diploma or GED ..........'" but that doesn't mean that is what will get you hired. I still say that law enforcement is one of the hardest jobs to get due to the testing and training requirements.
Now as for gun permits, take the two states you mention Texas and Oklahoma. These are two states with large rural areas, and fewer large cities (100,000 pop or more). Traditionally crime rates are lower in rural areas. I would be very interested to compare the crime rate of Houston to similar sized cities in California. I still stand by my opinion that the right to carry a concealed firearm comes with responsibilities most are unprepared to handle, and gun permits should only be issued on a very selective as needed criteria.
That's just my opinion, but I could be Wrong.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 897
If you do not mind, I would like to explore your opinion just a bit deeper because it seems to be a bit conflicted. You believe that citizens have a right to own guns, then you limit the rights of the general public to own specific guns. Why assume the general population, or the public, is less capable of sefely owning certain types of guns or has less need or desire for certain guns. As for your list of officer misconduct I also agree that there have been bad apples but police departments weed these officers out as soon as possible. Also most officers are disgusted by the actions of these few. I am sorry to tell you this, but my experience is that as a whole, police officers are not as dependable as one might hope, and that public safety really depends on responsible individuals doing the right thing. Many times they are so puffed up by false pride in who they are and their “professionalism” that they assume the public is childish and or stupid. I live in a neighborhood of quite a few police officers from different departments, and most, in a time of crisis, tend to lose their cool. In terms of guns, I have seen police officers fire wildly at a pig that was attacking pets, and yet never managed to hit it. That officer was also not aware that firing a revolver at a pig was not going to effectively stop the pig, even I he managed to hit it. A non-police officer with a hunting rifle stopped the pig with one shot. The point is that the police officer was so excited that he lost his common sense. I think this is more common then police officers want to admit. I don't know what you do for a living but I bet I could find a higher number of Bad Apples in your line of work than mine. A very big hint, do not make bets without more information and better definitions. What is a “Bad Apple” in any profession, and who determines who the bad apples are? Is it just the cases that make the papers, or are there more cases that never get heard of? have to remember that cops are just normal people doing an abnormal job. Knowing quite a few police from my childhood, and today in the neighborhood I live in, the police are not just normal people. They are individuals who made a choice to go into Public Service and into a dangerous line of public service knowing that they were making a sacrifice of personal safety, and for most career opportunities. In some officers this sense of sacrifice does become a sense of entitlement. They deal with the lowest and least trust worthy segment of society every day, and eventually that colors their reactions and attitudes toward others in all parts of their lives. Now as for gun permits Isn’t there a county that requires all adults to carry a gun, with the required safety courses and which has not crime at all? The community I live in has 4 police officers and many hunters. Coincidendally we have no violent crime and very little theft. During the few incidents in the past where people tried to burgel a house or hunt illegally, locals quickly surrounded and out gunned the persons. More over the strongest legal actions for these crimes were pursued in courts. Apparently the word has gotten out, and for the past 5 or 6 years nothing has occurred or been tried. Gun ownership, personal and community responsibility, and vigilence play important roles in this. I still stand by my opinion that the right to carry a concealed firearm comes with responsibilities most are unprepared to handle, and gun permits should only be issued on a very selective as needed criteria. In my opinion guns are tools and need to be handled intelligently, but every responsible adult should consider it their duty to own a firearm and use it as needed. I really think criminals would think twice about hijacking a car or breaking in a house if there was a very real danger of being shot, and I think community members need to be responsible about patrolling and ensuring the safety of their own neighborhoods. Rather the license guns, public authorities should put limits to gun ownership on those who have proven that they are irresponsible. It would be an easier job for police to routinely check those few people who should not own guns, rather then the many who could with a bit of training. I would like to see more responsible, trained citizens then sheltered and incapable citizens, but that is just me. As you say , that's just my opinion.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
It is very possible to stop a pig or wild boar with a revlover (a 6" .357 Mag) , I have done it 5 times hunting the biggest one was 300 lbs, the key is you have to hit what you shoot at.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 897
A standard issue service revolver for the Contra Costa Sherriff's office is not a 357 Mag. If you want to hunt pigs, try Mt Diablo State park. Pigs are rampent there and the Park is proving less then capable of keeping them in check. As you know if you shoot a pig, wound it but not kill it you have a big problem on your hands, because it will attack you. The story of the pig is very true, you may not want to believe it. The pig was badly wounded and very mad, but it was killed with a special load, (for distance not explosion) by a 270. For hunting a 270 in capable hands is much more effective then even your 6" 357.
As you also know, most police officers do not have 270s, or even scoped rifles.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
The issue firearm for Contra Costa SO, until recently was a Smith & Wesson 9mm semi-auto, it had been that for just about 15 years, it is now a Sig Sauer P226R or a P229R in .40 Smith & Wesson. Before that it was a Smith & Wesson Model 10, Deputies could purchase several other approved revolvers, I do not know what ammo was issued, or approved for individual purchase, but most departments issued a 125 gr semi-jacketed hollow point in .38 special +P and +P+ the +P+ round is almost to .357 magnum performance. What exactly is your point about a .270 being more effective than a .357 mag, nearly any rifle caliber is more effective than a handgun, your not teaching me anything I don't know.
Hunting with a handgun is done for skill not because of lack of a rifle, it takes more skill to be able to hunt with a handgun, nearly anyone can shoot a rifle at something from a distance, you have to get close with a handgun, and demonstrate some shooting skill as well as being able to get close enough without being discoved.
You don't need a scope to hit something, especially at distances under 100 yards. A special load for distance not explosion? You do know that bullets do not explode? There have been bullets desinged to explode, but they don't work about 80% of the time.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
Hey P5Ret, Chewy, Cowboy or anyone else that's taken verbal abuse from Clayton....if you keep responding to her you're feeding right into her game plan. She's a troll just trying to bait you into these arguments to feed her ego. And talk about frauds....she claims she's a college professor. Do you really think someone of that stature would behave like this on a public forum? Do you really think a college professor would make posts with so many spelling errors and poor grammar? My guess is it's all BS like a lot of what Clayton posts.
Clayton reminds me of a creature in one of the original Star Trek episodes that thrived on inflicting fear and strong emotion in people. The more emotional people got, the stronger this creature was. It could inhabit human bodies and the body it inhabited for most of the episode was that little bald character actor who also did the voice for Pooh in Winnie the Pooh cartoons. This character played an attorney prosecuting Scotty for murder. When everyone was on to this creature's motive, they all agreed to laugh at it and it fled.
Far be it from me to say that Clayton doesn't have a right to say what she wants to say on these forums but if you don't respond to her baiting, maybe she'll go find other victims. Then again, if you like this sort of pi$$ing match with her..... to each their own.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
Stoney I totally agree with you. Clayton always has "secret" sources and uncheckable facts. I had to laugh when he/she (did I miss something) posted "I am a college professor at a private institution, and in our profession independent thought and action is expected. You really can not have a "bad apple" if there are few standards and difference is rewarded." Sounds like something a desperate laywer would come up with in in a criminal court trial. As for his "law enforcement" sources I no doubt have more cops in my family than would even talk to him.
"Live Long and Prosper"
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
Rumor has it that "him's" a "her" that used to go under a different username, CinClayton that made such a fool of herself a while back over "trespassing" issues on a graveyard over near Clayton or Concord that she changed her username.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
Ok...I've seen the reference to the screen name in the past.
Another thought on why people get involved in these drawn out threads. I think for some it's like a chess game (or in my case a bad game of checkers). Actually for me it's a get away from the real world. My father has major health problems and I am his caretaker so it's nice to come home, fire up the computer, a cold one and lose myself for a period of time.
But I do agree with you about arguing with some posters. I've always said that if you quit banging your head against the wall the pain goes away. It's just that sometimes you forget about the pain until you smack your head on the wall again.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
Then again sometimes it is fun just to beat your head against that wall, for a little while just so that you can remember why you really don't miss having to go to work. Yeah I miss the job but not the admin second guessing BS that went with it.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
After all those years and the changes that went with it, for me it's more a case of mising hanging around the guys before and after shift. As for Admin I practiced "out of sight, out of mind."
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
Yeah your right I think I miss that part more than anything, and everytime I go back there are more new faces. Maybe if I had been able to play the whole game instead of going out early on injured reserve, it wouldn't be so bad. But hey no complaints it was fun while it lasted.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
I know what you mean. I've only been out 2+ years and I don't recognize 3/4 of the street crew. But you are right about one thing.... there were some good times, although less towards the end.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
Cowboy - I applaud you for taking care of your dad like that. It's a tough job. When we bought our place in Antioch in '92 one of the first projects I started was building an extra room for my mom who had Parkinsons. ( Don't worry BJ. Even though I didn't get a permit, my carpentry and electrical skill are pretty good and it's up to code, but just watch, this will be fodder to get blasted by you-know-who). My wife and I, who both had jobs and were raising two young kids, did the best we could and while she was still able to function fairly well, my mom was a great baby sitter. When things got worse my sister came out from Texas and lived with us for about a year and eventually took her back with her to Texas until she passed a few years ago. One thing I'm thankful for is that her memories of Antioch were good ones. She left before things started sliding downhill.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
So what is your experience "as a whole". I also see you declined to state what you do/or did for a living and reverted to double speak. I'm willing to admit to bad apples being in my line of work, why won't you? Do me a favor, go to the police you know and run by them your opinion of their sense of entitlement and come back and post their response. Just what Community do you live in? I'd like to check out the crime stats. Also what county requires all adults to carry a gun?
That's just my opinion, but I could be Wrong.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
Cowboy, Sorry about my attempt at levity yesterday. I know this is a serious subject but it usually opens a real can of worms and gets nowhere. One similar thread last year got pretty ugly. Clayton's usual MO on these forums is to jump in with off-the-wall BS solely to provoke people and bait them into a debate which, if you take the bait, can last forever. Recently on another thread dealing with land being set aside for open space that otherwise could (according to Clayton) be used for agriculture, the evidence to back up Clayton's claim was a link to a document that was so voluminous that if we opened it, we were warned, our computers would crash. Right. I wouldn't be surprised if this pig story is pure fabrication. One thing we do owe Clayton though is credit for coining the moniker OFEC (Old Fart Exchange Club), meant as a derisive title for those of us on the East County forums who occasionally "waste" our time exchanging recipes and sports updates instead of dealing with "serious" topics which in Clayton's all-knowing opinion is what these forums were intended for. I made a pledge last year that I wasn't going to respond directly to Clayton any more. I choose not to dignify his/her BS with a reply. Whether you want to is your choice.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
I too don't but too much stock in the pig story, if it is true it must be kinda old, can't think of a single department that still carry revolvers, or even issue ammo if you want to carry one off duty. Ammo is not cheap and most police administrators have other plans for their budget.
Just as an side note I am always looking for good bbq recipes, and don't feel that is a waste of forum space.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
As I indicated, a lot of us have chosen to ignore Clayton's attempts to influence our use of the forums. Keeping a sense of humor (which Clayton apparently lacks), and fostering a sense of community is just as important as hashing over the world's problems.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2459
Remember Joe Horn who shot those burglars that were ripping off his neighbor's property in Pasadena Texas? On Wikipedia, it says he received a lot of death threats stating that there are people waiting on the inside to get to him, and if he doesn't go to prison, there are people waiting on the outside that are coming after him too. That would be really unnerving and I wouldn't want to experience that. Some people may still think the death threats are worth it, but it's not to me. Especially over some property that was being stolen and there was an off duty cop on the scene waiting for backup, so the bad guys were probably going to get caught anyway.
A gun in your house is one thing, but once somebody takes it out of their house all kinds of things can go wrong.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 679
Actually I enjoyed the levity. I'm sure you have noticed that I am not above injecting a little humor myself. As for opening a can of worms, as a chilld I was that kid that always grabbed a stick and wacked the hornets nest. Besides it was getting a little boring around here. As for certain posters I know their M.O. it's just that sometimes you have to wack the hive twce to get all the hornets out before you run.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1718
I think a more appropriate metaphor here would be an annoying mosquito.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 897
You are having a little trouble getting your facts correct, but that is not really surprising is it. So you want the link to the data on land useage here is the link http://www.co.contra-costa.ca.us/depart/cd/water/HCP/documents.html Open the first document and you will find both a graphic on the data. Just do not blame me if it crashes your computer or fails to load. You could go down to Martinez and purchase a hard copy to safe you computer, or you could have just looked it up yourself but to that may be just to much.
One thing we do owe Clayton though is credit for coining the moniker OFEC
Sorry, but as I have said, I never coined the term, I heard it used at a local café, and I though it was apropo to those people on the Brentwood side who were attacking Clayton planning process at the time. And for the record to date, no Church. You can ignore me all you want, it is a pleasure; but you do not get to make up facts or re-write history. By the way, how were you ignoring me, when we conversed over the causes of food price increases?
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 897
I am a college professor at a private institution, and in our profession independent thought and action is expected. You really can not have a "bad apple" if there are few standards and difference is rewarded. My experience comes from being raised in a family deeply committed to public service, and in a community, (interestingly) largerly populated by public servants. Many of those are police officers. Do me a favor, go to the police you know and run by them your opinion of their sense of entitlement and come back and post their response. You may not like this response but I have. In particular a Deputy Sherrif in our neighborhood, (no I will not reveal his name),a police officer in a West County City, A mounted posse member, and a reserve sherriff officer who happens to be my father have discussed with me my observations from Ride Alongs, with them and other officers. I have been part of long term discussions of the philosophy and the ethics of beeing a public servant, and even explorations of why police officers have very high stress rates that result in large numbers of divorces, troubled parenting relationships, and occasionally suicide.
To put it bluntly, I am not telling you where I live or specifically who I speak to because this is a PUBLIC forum, and frankly it is not secure.
You have struck a topic I have been very curious about for sometime because I think it is very inciteful of the human condition. Several clear facts lead me to the conclusions I make
1. Self selection of a career in law enforcement does gender, generally speaking, a very specifc type of candidate, one who is empowered by serving others, and views the community very positively. Finally I do sense a lot of pride in police offers in their choice of career. All of this is very commendable.
2.Police officers tend to spend most of their time dealing with the most violent, least educated, least rational members of society. They are subjected to very high levels of mentally focusing hormones for short bursts on a regular basis. Finally they tend to view themselves as better skilled but vastly undercompensated members of the society they protect. All of this leads to different reactions in different officers, but in many cases it creates or recreates extreme personality profiles. In a number of officers, according to a ranking member of the Sherriff's, this results in a sense of entitlement. It is not an unwarrented position, but that is not in dispute as far as I know.
3. The situation with police officers actually reminds me of a much used, (and misused qoute) Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Lord Acton, in the Letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887 Police officers in many situations have power, and in time may view that power as absolute. Maybe this is what developes into bad apples. My point is that, in my oberservation, it is a result of the pressures and the nature of the job.; not the person.
I believe one solution to this problem is to change the society the police protect by empowering individuals to protect themselves rather then being dependent on a police force to protect them. An armed and responsible public that can protect themselves takes away some of the power of the police as well as some of their responsibility. The public becomes more an equal and less a dependent. The police will then shift to a less protection, more service role. This is my opinion based on my observations and conversations.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 310
If we "empower" the public in general to protect themselves by allowing anyone to carry a concealed firearm, who do you think is going to be there to clean up the mess when things go bad and it will. My guess is the same cop that you suggest needs to have less authority than they do. There will always be a number of persons who are either unwilling or unable to protect themselves, and most prople who are capable will rarely help someone else who can't. How many times has this been proven by so called news programs, didn't ABC's 20/20 do a whole series of shows where they set up situations to see who would, and how they would react.
Society would be much more polite, if capable individuals were allowed to be armed, no not just the police. There are plenty of persons who are for lack of a better term are level headed enough to know when to use a firearm and when not to. I for one do not have an issue with properly trained private citizens being allowed to carry a concealed firearm. I do however have a problem with wholesale granting of permits to anyone who wants one. In a nutshell if we continue to allow the political leadership of this state and country to make these decissions for us by not speaking up or voting, our great grandchildren will be discussing the same thing.