Posted on Monday, 7/13/2009 - 4:29 p.m. PDT — by Marilyn71
I am posting this for a neighbor, in the hopes that someone has heard something regarding this incident, and that this doesn't happen to another dog, or worse, a child.
The week of June 22nd, my neighbor and wife were at work, and their 3 year old beagle was in their yard as usual. 2 pitbulls broke through his side gate and pulled his beagle out into the driveway, and the 2 dogs proceeded to rip him apart (according to a witness). His dog was yelping & screaming, and trying to get away, and went onto another neighbors driveway to try to get away. The witnessed watched the approximate 8 minute attack, until a white vehicle pulled up and called to the dogs. The dogs then stopped, ran to the car and got in, and the vehicle drove around the block (on my side of the street) and stopped. The witness was too scared to get involved, so she did not get a good description of the vehicle, it's driver, nor did she get the license plate from where she was watching.
The good news is that the dog will be okay. He was pretty messed up & surprisingly survived. I went to visit him to take a look at the fence & his injuries. This incident concerns me that they broke into their yard & pulled him out, and also that the owner clearly saw what was happening, and chose to flee instead of help & take responsibility. Not only were these dogs loose, but what if this had been a child playing in his/her own backyard? A police report has already been filed, but I wanted to get the word out because people talk & you never know if something will come out of posting this.
I debated on posting this at all because I have been off the site for so long, but kinda felt obligated to because of the NW thing.
Joined: Aug 2007
Current Posts: 48
I must say, I think the degree to which people disobey leash laws, especially on animals this powerful, is really scary. After the Fireworks on the fourth, there was a young man looking around in the City Hall parking lot for his lost "Pit." My wife is 8 months pregnant and I did not feel safe knowing there was a loose and probably scared Pit Bull roaming around. On our block and in the park, there are dogs off the leash all of the time. Animal Services seems to be interested only if pet appears "lost." I think too many people forget that a dog is an animal and no matter how much you trust it, there are precautions in place for a reason. Has anyone heard of a owner being ticketed or having some other consequence for violating leash laws? I fear we are just waiting for an incredible tragedy around here.
Joined: Apr 2009
Current Posts: 59
I've lived in many places in California and throughout the west coast and I have never seen as many dogs wandering around unleashed without owners as in Antioch. What is up with that? Are they abandoned? Allowed to roam free during the day while owners work or what? Most have not been aggressive, but it's still not something I or my children should have to deal with. (Or anyone else, for that manner)
Joined: Nov 2006
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Clearly, there needs to be restrictions on owning pitt bulls! (Okay, I can hear the dog lovers saying that it is not PC to say "own".)
First, the owner(s) should be required to post a bond since this bred had a vicious history. Second, there should be hefty fines for having an unlicensed pitt bull. Third, the license fee for a pitt bull should be twice the normal license fee. And lastly, owners of pitt bulls need to be held liable for their dogs behavior; and criminally liable if the owner fails to take the first three steps.
This is a dangerous bred and a hazard to our children and pets.
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I 100% agree with this, and I am a dog lover! Not a lover of pit bulls, however.
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To all the dog lovers(pit bull lovers) who might think we need these dogs in society and they pose no threat to the public: How do you feel about guns? Owners of these dogs might as well be walking around with guns on thier hips. They pose the same threats to children and other dogs. I agree they should pay more to license dangerous breeds of dogs and also be required to post a bond and proof of insurance that will cover any medical(physical or mental). To the neighbors of pitbull dogs. Call animal patrol and ask if those dogs have been licensed in our city.
Joined: Aug 2007
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And furthermore, I think it is potentially more dangerous than the firearm analogy because the firearm does not have a mind of its own- theoretically, only the carrier can use it.
4A- I agree with you as well. I know there are Pit Bull owners that claim that this breed is no more aggressive than any other type of dog. I do not have hard numbers, but my anecdotal data tells me that this cannot be the case- I cannot remember hearing of a Corgi, Rat Terrier or even a Golden Retriever ripping a small child limb for limb.
Joined: Jul 2006
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Usually pit bull owners cite statistics showing that other breeds far outnumber pit bulls in the number of incidents of dog bites. To carry your statement a bit further, yes, that may be the case as far as numbers alone, but the severity of the injury caused by the bite, or attack, is what makes this breed so dangerous.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 85
Also, most (if not all) homeowners insurance companies will not insure owners if they have certain breeds of dogs (such as pitbulls). What does that tell us?
I just feel that people should be responsible and at least own up to it if your dogs did something such as what happened to my neighbor. My dogs chewed through our fence when they were puppies and my husband and I scrounged money together to replace all 3 sides of our fences (with no help from my 3 neighbors).
And yeah, what happened to the leash law? Lately, I am finding a lot of "small dog" owners think the rules do not apply to them.
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I can tell you from personal experience, even a small dog bite can make you afraid of dogs forever. You cannot even begin to know what I have given up because if there is a dog in attendance I will not participate. I know where Marilyn lives and yes owners of those little ankle biter chihuahas think they can let them run free. Half of them are not even licensed.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 2
I agree with you too!
Whenever Pit Bull owners claim that their breed is no more agressive than any other breed of dog, I point them in the direction of actual facts gathered by the federal government on the site below:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dog50.pdf
According the the government's study of human fatalities caused by dogs (and this does not count in the number of children/adults/and pets who have to live with a life-long physical disability after surviving a Pit Bull attack), the number of Pit Bulls and Pit Bull Mixes who have managed to kill humans far out numbers kill ratios achieved by other breeds:
From 1979 to 1994 (the latest study they show) here's how the different breeds stack up:
Pit Bulls --- 57 human fatalities
Rottweilers --- 19 human fatalities
Shepherd --- 17 human fatalities
Husky --- 12 human fatalities
Malamute --- 12 human fatalities
Doberman --- 8 human fatalities
Chow --- 6 human fatalities
Great Dane --- 5 human fatalities
Saint Bernard --- 4 human fatalities
Akita --- 4 human fatalities
**Pit Bull mixed-breeds also accounted for 10 additional human kills bringing the total kills to 67...proof that unlike what Pit Bull owners will tell you...they ARE a very, very dangerous breed.
Not only that, but, as I mentioned before, these statistics ONLY count human fatalities and not those who have been seriously injured but survived. Think of what the actual number would be if the government also counted all the children, adults and older adults who have been maimed and/or crippled for life by this breed and you can imagine the magnitude of the total damage this man-made breed has been responsible for.
Our own family pet, was attacked by an un-neutered Pit Bull, while the owner stood by and smiled, and because our dog's only defense is running, twisting and jumping (it's a spayed Boxer female) she was unable to free herself from the powerful jaws of her attacker and as a consequence has a 12" scar on the right side of her rib cage. It could have been much, much worse. I hate to think what could have happened had the Pit Bull attacked our dog in her own backyard, if we were inside our house.
Pit Bulls were originally created for one purpose only "to fight and to kill other dogs". They took English Bull Dogs and mixed in Terriers (who have been breed to kill small rodents, etc.) and created a super large "killer terrier" (with muscles)...a veritable "killing-machine-on-legs" and these new hybrids were used exclusively for "sporting hall" dog fights where attendess would bet on which dog would survive the dog fight. Pit Bulls were successful as dog fighters, but what I don't think the creators of this new breed were prepared to take credit for, is that it ended up loving to go after and kill other, larger "things"...sometimes things on 2 legs instead of 4.
Another excuse you'll often hear Pit Bull owners tell you is that their dog LOVES them...well, yes it does love THEM, BUT you and your pet dog are NOT part of their pack/family and they probably DON'T love you or your pet dog, or your child, etc.
Dog Pack mentality is powerful and yes, Pit Bulls will recognize their owners and their immeditate family as "pack leaders" but outside their immediate home all hell can break loose and many times does.
I really think with stats like those above, that breeding Pit Bulls should be prohibited by municipalities. God did not create these powerful killers, man did and man needs to look reality in the face and realise his mistake and rectify it.
Cities could require all Pit Bulls to be spayed or neutered before sexual maturity and then levy heavy fines on anyone caught producing a Pit Bull or Pit Bull Mix litter.
It's frightening to know that you and your good dog just might have the very unfortunate experience of meeting up with a vicious Pit Bull someday, just as our poor Boxer did and face the scary consequences.
--Cece
Joined: Oct 2007
Current Posts: 766
I have yet to see anyones gun jump out of a holster and attack someone, or go off all by itself. The real problem here is irresponsibility, the owners of agressive dogs any breed by the way. and the neighbor who does not want to get involved. How are you going to clean up your neighborhood if you don't want to do anything about it in the first place, you live there not the cop who shows up. If it had been a child being attacked would the neighbor still not want to get involved? Antioch is sounding more like Oakland everyday with the people too afraid to get involved, but constantly complaining that the police don't do enough. Sorry for the rant but I for one am tired of people complaining about something but not having the courage to stand up and set an example for the neighborhood to follow.
Joined: Aug 2007
Current Posts: 48
I agree that neighbor involvement is essential and woefully missing. We have a really good Neighborhood Watch program up and running on our block but with the foreclosures, and just the transient nature of the community has left us with entirely new neighbors. I feel like we greeting new comers almost every week and keeping the NW program going has been a lot of hard work, but it is worth it. Check out Donna's post about the program and National Night Out. Getting neighbors involved is the only way we can make this difference. My only concern is when NW turns into vigilanteism- I see that our jobs are to try to establish good, positive relationships with neighbors, handle minor concerns civilly, and report potentially dangerous situations to the authorities.
Joined: Jul 2009
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Pittbulls have a bad wrap. You can make any dog mean. I have seen a lot of pittbulls that are big love bugs. I dont understand why people get dogs and try and make them mean. Who wants a dog that is a liability.
Joined: Dec 2008
Current Posts: 410
Pitts have been inbred so much that they are now, by nature, agressive. I agree, an owner that has a pit should have to post a bond. But than again, look at all the people that drive without a drivers lic. or insurance. Yes, I did have a lab/ pit mix and was a great dog very gentle. He had the lab ears that we never clipped. We always told people he was a boxer/lab mix but if you looked at him closely, you could tell what he was. When we got him from a shelter, he was about 1 year old and who ever had him must have beat him with a newspaper because everytime I would read the paper, he would run and hide for about the first 6 months we had him. We had him for 16 years before he past away.
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Current Posts: 77
The pitt is not the problem! It's the owner! I have owned pitt bulls in the past and they are such sweet loving pets animals. It's sad that this breed has turned into this horrible feared creature! but to be honest I fear any unleashed dog. I have no clue what animals are thinking or what they will do.
Lets all just take a moment to thank "ghetto, unschooled, lowerclass" people for ruining these beautiful animals.
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AND btw... I consider chihuahua to be FAR more agressive than a pitt bull!
If I had a dollar for every time one of those nasty creatures bit/growled/snarled/or attacked me I would be one rich gal
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And how many people have been mauled/killed by chihuahuas?
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Im just saying that if those dogs were a little bigger it would be a problem! Nooo it IS a problem! I dont like to have to kick any living creature.. and man, I really have to kick a lot of them!
Joined: Apr 2009
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as would I, those things always snap and bark as they pass me...my son cries when he sees them, he's scared of them.
I don't know about more aggressive than a pitbull, maybe more wound up, though.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 2215
The "witness" is pretty much guaranteeing that someone else will pay the price.
Does "snitching" now apply to dogs in Antioch?
These dogs will hurt someone very badly in the future. Tell your friend to remember this when they wondered why it happened. All evil needs to survive is for good people to do nothing.
Joined: Jul 2007
Current Posts: 115
What if these dogs attack a child? Or a older person? Or anyone? What if they kill next time? This is sick she didn't report it. We've reported on suspected drug dealers to our management company, gangsters and what not. I refuse to live in fear. We need to report - it's the responsible thing to do! That poor doggie.
Joined: Nov 2006
Current Posts: 1438
Well, I reported on my neighbor who has two unregistered pitt bulls. I had to do it after my neighbor had someone staying with him that didn't like me working out back at 8:30am and started breaking down the fence between our back yards!
I called Dispatch and let them know that I had my 380 with me in the back yard in case those dogs came after my cats, rabbit or chickens!
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I love it. Did they dispatch someone? I suppose my problem is I've been trying to work through Animal Services rather than the PD. I will have to try that next time. Thanks for the tip.
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Current Posts: 115
I am glad you reported them. If any dog is not properly trained or socialized it has a potential to be a biter. With the pit - they do horrible damage because they are so strong with their jaws.
My friend from work was walking her dog and a pit came out of nowhere and grabbed her diog by the throat. Someone saw it happening and honked their horn at the dog and thankfully it ran off without doing serious damage. The pit had no collar no leash - it was just out loose. Scary stuff!
Joined: May 2007
Current Posts: 97
There's a county-wide Leash Law! All must obey the laws...we are a country founded upon laws. No one is above the law... If someone disobeys the law, REPORT them!!!!! Amen. Period. End of discussion...
Joined: Nov 2006
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Alphagran, County laws don't apply to cities (which is why cities incorporate to get away from County laws).
But, each of the 19 Contra Costa Cities do have leash laws in their municipal code. There are exceptions in most municipal codes.
For example, in Antioch, the leash law does not apply to the Dog Park off James Donlon just west of Somersville Road.
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 73
I agree! I almost had my finger taken off by one of those little dogs. I'm actually afraid of them. I think pitts are beautiful dogs and can be well behaved if raised properly. I looked into buying one a couple of years back and decided that it was more responsibility than I could handle.
The training is actually "anti-training" to teach the animal to fight it's natural predatorial instinct. That wasn't anything I was confident enough to pull off. Idiots have an easier time to train them to be vicious because it's already in them deep down.
Even though I think we would've been fine pitt owners, I knew that the tiny lack of confidence was too much of a liability for my neighbors and their pets. So we opted for a beagle instead... lord help me.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 85
I do have a friend who had 2 pitts. They were very sweet. He did not raise his to act agressively & they were both licensed & neutered. Unfortunately, they are one of the dogs on the list that insurance companies will ask about when you apply for homeowners insurance.
The licensing/leash law should and does apply to all dog owners. My daughter was bitten by a neighbors chichaua (sp?) a few years back and he had bitten her and other kids before, but this time it broke skin. I took her to Kaiser only because my friend had a dog bite the year prior and got E-coli in her skin due to the bite. My daughter had to take antibiotics for 10 days and Kaiser reported it to Animal Services. The dog was roaming outside, off leash. I tried to talk to the neighbor and ended up speaking to his girlfriend & asking her to have him come talk to me. Never happened. Instead, they continually harrassed us and badmouthed us to all the neighbors. This went on for 2 years before he finally apologized, but still mentioned that he had to eventually put his dog down because of us (after it bit someone else). He was not licensed, nor did he have a current rabies shot.
Anything with teeth will bite, even cats. The problem is that pets are not a novelty, they are a responsibility just like children and we as adults/parents must be responsible if they do something to someone else (or another dog).
Emeigh: We went for 1 beagle & ended up with 2. They ate EVERYTHING in our backyard. We call them our goats.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 908
a lot of drug dealers keep these dogs = to guard their stashes at their houses especially while away
cops know this
so you don't want to get too involved just tell the cops...take pictures....video. talk to neighbors
Joined: Jul 2009
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First off I wanna say Both sides have valid arguments. As a professional dog breeder who breeds American staffshire terriers and american pittbull terriers I can honestly say Pitt bulls have a bad rap, Through imbreeding, overbreeding and un responsible dog owners. If you have a ukc/ adba papered dog theres less chance your going to get a dog with mental problems. Pittbulls have been overbreed so much its polluting the breed. The saying you get what you pay for is true with pittbulls. You pay 200 or so your probably going to get a very dumb dog! As for me I sell my dogs for no less than 1000. Make no mistake Ive turned down many buyers over the years if I didn't feel they were up to the challenge or were in it for the wrong reason! So you mix a cheap pit bull with a unresponible owner its big time problems!! Pittbulls need lots of attention and must be disciplined !! Lack of either one can result to a disaster! I personally think theres too many in our area too many backyard breeders who dont know / care what their doing. As for me Ive had other types of dogs none however as smart, loving, and obedient as my pittbull terriers! Thank you for your time!!
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What area of town did this attack happen in? Just in case I hear something about it.
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Off Country Hills around by Carmen Dragon School area. Imagine if the kids would have been getting out of school at the time and tried to break that up.
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I think the reason why there are so many pets running loose in our streets is because people can not afford to keep them any more so they let them go...which is sad cuz lately i have been seeing alot of dead animals on the street...why not just take them to a animal shelter and let them put them up for adoption...i know it is probably full but there are other ways to get rid of a dog or cat...
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PUNISH THE DEED --- NOT THE BREED. PUNISH THE IDIOTS WHO
INSIST ON BEING IRRESPONSIBLE PET OWNERS, BY NOT SOCIALIZING THEIR DOG, LEAVING THEIR DOG OUTSIDE UNATTENDED, CHAINING THEIR DOG TO A TREE OR POLE, CHANCES ARE THEY ARE THE SAME ONES WHO RAISE THEIR CHILDREN TO BE COMPLETE IDIOTS, LIKE THEM !!
Joined: Sep 2006
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Yes sadly this breed is used to fight and intimidate. If all they want is a guard dog any dog can be taught to bark when someone invades its territory. It is expensive to own a dog. An alarm system is cheaper and not as much trouble. The pit bulls are used for intimidation and the owners might as well have a loaded gun on their hip. Some may say many dogs bite, true but they are not bred to kill. They learn that from the same people raising them. If pit bulls are such loving dogs, why do I never ever see any little old ladies walking them? Could it be because they are uncontrollable and unpredictable? Pit bulls have no place in a society where children reside and should be outlawed or at the least provided with a six foot dog run with a padlocked gate when the owners are not home.
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Current Posts: 24
No, again it's the stupid people who own these dogs, NOT the breed. There ought to be a law against people being stupid. BAN STUPID PEOPLE NOT DOGS !!
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Take away political views for a moment. We have all seen people used for comedy on radio and TV that are asked a very simple question on election day. Example- "Can you name any legislation the person you are voting for has supported that has earned your vote?"
We see this every election year and these people vote. Their vote counts as much as mine.
Is this a good thing?
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 2284
You are veering away from the subject of this thread!
1. Pit Bulls
A pit bull is a fearless dog that will take on any opponent. They will lock their jaws onto the prey until it's dead. Pit bulls have a reputation of mauling people to death and they are highly sought for dog fighting
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
He's not veering away from it, but outlawing a breed of dog is stupidity. there are laws on the books that have to be and should be enforced, you saying all Pit Bulls are vicious maneaters is like saying everyone with brown eyes has the potential to be homicidal, all dogs have the potential to be vicious maneaters, and what "H" if more people were responsible owners i.e., take their dog to obedience training, properly socialize it, and realize that a dog is a family member, not a piece of property to just leave in the backyard 24/7 like a junk car, there wouldn't be so many residential burglaries, because burglars just laugh at alarm systems, because by the time the "half-wit" receives the alarm activation at a site in Florida or worse yet, India, figures out who to call, calls the police, and it will sit there waiting to be dispatched for sometimes up to 10 or 15 minutes, the burglars have run off with the goods. There is another saying about alarm systems (now I know this blog isn't about alarms, so i'm gonna stop with this), "Should have saved the 5 grand, and bought a dog for the house" It's not the dogs that are bad it's the people, the people (they're not even that) who use pitbulls for fighting, attacking, etc. would use a golden retriever for the same thing .... People have to be responsible for their actions and that of their dogs ..... again, use the laws to PUNISH idiot owners not the breed.
Joined: Jul 2008
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I would never own a pitbull. I don't want one in my neighborhood. How is that?
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My $.02
I owned a pit bull and I can say it is the owners, not the dogs that are the main problem here. Due to their natural athletic ability and tenacity, it makes these dogs that much more dangerous in the hands of the wrong person. These types of stories are unfortunate and sad but it's ignorant to say all pit bulls are bad dogs. They simply aren't and if you think otherwise I suggest you do your homework. And don't let the medias negative portrayal of pit bulls influence you.
I am all for punishing these irresponsible pit bull owners to the fullest extent and clamping down on the ownership of pit bulls but they shouldn't be banned.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 2215
We have quite a few dogs in my neighborhood. Lots of retrievers, but the point is these are dogs that are no threat to anyone. I think the sentence for a dog that goes out of control should be changed. Today the dog gets put down and on very rare exception the owner charged. I think the owners should be held far more accontable.
If your dog causes SERIOUS injury the owner should be charged.
One thing all owners of any dod should be able to do is control their dog. If you cant control your dog on a leash if it is determined to run at something you have a problem.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 2284
The owners should be held responsible. And as the case in SF they can even be jailed. The problem is not all owners can be found like this case in Antioch where the owners picked up the dogs and disappeared. I remember another case in Antioch, I believe, the dogs went into a garage and attacked a woman who threw her baby into a garbage can to keep the dogs from getting it. The owners picked up the dogs and hid them out of town." H" in Antioch we aren't even holding parents responsible for what their little thug kids are doing.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 860
nick although i 100% agree if i had small children i probably would not have one but iam totally on your side it is the owners actions and the way they raise the dog i used to get my bike worked on at antioch customs and tye <-maybe mis had a full breed big mo fo for a pitt bull and he would not harm a fly unfortunatly i think he lost the dog some how and there is a big reward for it but the dog would protect family and would not bother anyone i have to admit that that dog would tear my sh#$it up but after knowing it it was as harmless as a fly however these kids with out any income to take one to the vet or any thing else take these dogs on and walk da hood knowing they are bad because of the dog and dont have a clue on how to raise a dog that give the dogs a bad name,it is definatly the owner that is a mirror image of the dog.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 908
find out who the owner is, they couldn't be far away. put up fliers.
then sue the living crap out of this piece of garbage.
the type of animal is not the problem. these are sweet animals. if they act like this it is on purpose, because of horrible owner. they must be sued to prevent a child being killed.
do it. or suffer.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 2
Smokey ur wrong!! My mother has a pittbull that she walks !! she's 65 years old. Just the other day I was in Pets mart and a woman in her 70's was walking a piittbull with no problems. So to outlaw a whole breed and to say all pittbulls are unpredictable is not a very smart comment! I have owned well over 15 pittbulls both as a child growing up and now as an adult and Ive never had any problems!! It has too do with the OWNERS and what type of dog you pay for!!
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Current Posts: 2284
You have been very lucky! And all the kids around your dogs have been very lucky.
p.s. 30 years old, well over 15 pitbulls=a new dog every 2 years or less. Sounds like a breeder to me. I might be wrong LOL
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Smokey 38 you're wrong .... It's not luck, it's called knowing the breed, teaching children how to act around dogs, and like I have said throughout this forum ---- Socialization, Training, Socialization and Training --- how many times do I have to say it ???
You must be one of those people who believe that dogs should be banished to the backyard, made to sleep in the garage and have no social interaction with its family (a certain recipe for disaster) .... one of those people who just buy a "puppy" 'cause it's "cute". Spare all of us responsible dog owners, and try to refrain from your silly comments, thereby enabling IRRESPONSIBLE pet ownership by ignorant and naive beliefs that if something is made illegal, it will then keep us all safe.
Joined: Nov 2006
Current Posts: 1438
Hey, we have parents who can't control their children, so how the heck are we going to get the owners of pit bulls to properly train their dogs? It is simply not workable.
Joined: May 2007
Current Posts: 197
As someone who has raised and trained dogs for 70 years, I can assure you it is not the dog, it's the owner! People get dogs who know nothing about the breed their getting, about their needs or how to train them. They just think they "look cute," as all puppies do. But they grow up and they need attention. Most people don't even realize that getting a dog is a major investment. Today's vets cost as much or more than regular MD's and have just as many specialities. If you're not able to do it yourself, training can also be very expensive.
There is no such thing as an untrainable dog. If you have any doubts, try watching Ceasar Millan's Dog Whisperer show on the Natonal Geographic Channel. (Fridays) He'll show you exactly what I mean.
I agree with a previous poster re the errant dog gets euthanized, while the owner walks. If anything, it should be the other way around. (Exaggerating, of course, but it's always the owners who are responsible, and they should have to pay, dearly, not just with $$ or insurance.)
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Joined: Sep 2006
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WOW. I wanted to post this to get the word out, not cause arguments or get into debates about pitbulls.
I am an animal lover & have been fortunate enough to have lots of animals growing up. I especially love dogs. There are several breeds that I would just never own, no matter how "nice" they are. That does not mean that I won't pet them at the dog park, or talk bad about the whole breed. It is my choice to not own a large dog that I may not be able to control, or that I would question around my kids because of their strength. Animals are animals, regardless of the owners. They have instincts. If they have teeth, they are capable of biting. Some have a strong "pack" mentality if there is more than one. People have bears as pets, some have tigers, that does not mean that I would want one. Whatever we own, we should be responsible, just like we would for our kids.
I don't think pitbulls should be "outlawed" (even though ferrets are illegal in CA and HI - go figure!), but answer me one question: Do any pitt owners actually have homeowners insurance, and if so, does your company know that you have one? Do you have to pay extra or have a special policy? If one of my dogs bites someone, it falls under my homeowners policy. I am curious.
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 127
Regardless of the reasoning for mentioning this issue, it was bound to spark a debate. It's just one of those topics...
To say that the breed should be outlawed completely, imo, isn't the right move. It will not stop people from owning them, it will not stop people from breeding them, it will only send it underground. Rather than making them illegal to own, impose strict guidelines, as I believe has already been suggested. Require a permit to own them in the first place, require additional permits to breed them, require a training certificate as well as dog breed education classes, impose steep penalties for a failure to comply with the requirements. Also require potential owners to be free of violent criminal history.
It is a fact that both Pit Bulls and Rottwielers (i'm guessing american as opposed to german as the american rottie was crossbred with pit to obtain the sleeker features) can be attributed to the majority of recorded dog bites. Such information is available on the internet at a site such as this one: http://www.dog-bite-law-center.com/pgs/stats.html . However, this information should not lead one to assume that these two breeds are collectively dangerous, only that when mishandled have the propensity to be more dangerous and in some cases deadly. Another point, as has been mentioned, is that if it has teeth, it can bite and this applies to any creature regardless of breed or species and including people. Also, statistics only reflect what has been recorded. I would venture to say that toy/small breed dogs are potentially more likely to nip/snap/bite than a larger one, generally speaking, but due to the low likelihood of actual physical injury occuring the incidents are not recorded.
I've never been bitten maliciously by a large breed dog, I have however been bitten by a toy poodle, chihuahuas, and cocker spaniel. I've been around multiple dog breeds in my lifetime, of all sizes and different upbringings. I've even played with a pitbull puppy I was rehoming (apartments are not appropriate for higher energy larger breed dogs). In that situation I noted that their playful bites can be just as forceful as a full on bite from a cocker spaniel, attributed to their powerful jaws. They are high energy and bred properly can be highly intelligent. Properly bred and handled they are loving and well behaved dogs. The one I rehomed turned out to be a 100 pound (solid not fat) lap dog. He was loving and playful, liked being around people, was socialized with both small dogs, cats, and people as early on as was possible with the rehoming, which happened when he was around 3 - 4 months old.
Would I own a pitbull, yes....but not while my daughter is still young. I wouldn't suggest anyone with children under the age of 14 own a pitbull, and even then only if the child was mature and responsible enough to understand the proper way to handle one. Then again, no one should own a pet that they are not emotionally, physically, and educationally prepared to handle. Breeding (primarily bad breeding) is done in response to demand; bad breeding is primarily done to fill the market for those who buy pets that they are not prepared for the responsibility of or have ill intentions. If you can't afford to buy a purebreed dog or cat from a reputable breeder, chances are you can't afford to own it either, especially not long term.
At any rate, from what I hear, the majority of reputable homeowners insurance companies will not insure someone who admits to owning either a pit bull or rottie, and for those who own german shepards and dogs of that ilk must show proof from a vet that the dog is of good temperment and does not show aggression. Again, that's a word of mouth information relay, not something I've checked into.
In response to the original post, I hadn't heard anything about it, and wish that anyone with information would be responsible enough to speak up and say something.
Edited to include the following PSA: Spay or neuter your pets, it helps with agressive behavior; ALL dogs should be leashed when outside of home or vehicle, properly secure your dogs in the bed of a truck, don't roll windows all the way down so your dog cannot jump out of your car, and do not bring your dog out for a ride in the car only to leave it waiting in the car in warm or hot weather. Thank you.
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Life is like a jar of jalapenos,
what you do today might burn your butt tomorrow.
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Perfect. Excellent points.
Thank you !!
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If for some reason, the dog decides to attack can the 65 year old woman or the 70 year old woman hold the dog back? If the answer to that is no (my guess is it is) these peopel should NOT have these dogs. Same with any other dog. If you cant control it when it is using maximum force to get out of your control you should NOT have it. Any breed, any size dog.
That said, I agree you can train both dogs and people but they are still animals and it only takes one moment. If someones pitbul attacks one of my kids I will consider the OWNER and the dog an immediate threat and deal with both of them swiftly and with great force.
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I agree that pitts have a bad rap. They do have a higher agression drive then a normal dog which is why they need to be properly trained and socialized. I petsit part time and I have watched pitts. Yes they make me more nervous however I have learned a Pitt can be as passive as any dog. It depends on their upbringing. I also think 2 pitts are more of a problem then a single one as they then act as a pack and bring pack mentality into the picture. I've had them living next door to me and hated it. I also have a mutt dog on the other side of me that is agressive if my dogs go by the fence when she's out. The answer isn't in banning any breed, but in the education, getting people to understand that getting a dog, whether purebred, or mutt, requires time. Lots of time and Training. A dog is a commitment between the owner and the dog. Not a temporary commitment. The pound is full of pitts and large dogs that people took in when they were cute and small, and abandoned when they became too much to deal with anymore.
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A 21-year-old West Knox County woman mauled today by pit bulls at her trailer has died.
Jennifer Lowe died tonight at the University of Tennessee Center, a hospital spokeswoman said.According to the Knox County Sheriff's Office, two pit bulls mauled the woman this afternoon, and at least one of the dogs was shot and killed by sheriff's deputies.
Lowe sustained severe injuries to her face and an arm in the mauling and was transported to a Knoxville hospital.
The woman was lying inside an open door of her trailer when officers arrived in the 11,300 block of Sam Lee Road near Hardin Valley about 4:15 p.m.Neighbor Harold Nelson said the woman was thrashing around when he arrived at the scene.
"The pit bulls bit this woman," Nelson said. "They were covered in blood. I told the police not to get out of your car without your weapon."The dogs charged at officers and several shots rang out. At least one animal was killed, and the others ran off."
Nelson said he doesn't know who owns the dogs.Another neighbor, however, said the dogs have been a recurring problem in the neighborhood.
Jeanne Kidd, who lives across the street from the trailer where the woman was attacked, said she heard the victim screaming for help and called E-911."I heard her screaming ... then I heard her screeching," Kidd said. "She kept screaming for help."
When Kidd looked across the street she could see the lower half of the woman's body with the dogs standing above her."I saw blood and realized it was the dogs," Kidd said.
One of the pit bulls was shot and killed by deputies. A second dog was wounded and fled into the woods behind the trailer.
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10/2/2007 10:08 PM
| Comments 7 | Recommend 3One of Canterbury's sons tried to help her, but the dogs attacked him. He was not seriously injured, authorities said.
A family friend shot at the dogs to scare them away. A deputy shot one of the dogs. The other dog ran away but was found two hours later and killed, authorities said.
Clay County Sheriff Rick Beseler said he couldn't remember such a severe dog attack since becoming sheriff three years ago.
There were no signs of dog fighting or other abuse at the Canterbury home, authorities said.
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71-Year-Old Kansas City Woman Killed by Pit Bull Rash of Maulings Spurs Legislation Across the Country July 28, 2006 Post a Comment Font Size PrintRSSE-mailShare this story with friendsFacebookRedditTwitterStumbleUponMore Police said they are treating the fatal dog mauling of a 71-year-old Kansas City, Kan., woman as a homicide and are looking for the person who owned the dog.
Jimmie May McConnell was in her garden at about 11:30 a.m. on Thursday when a neighbor's dog jumped the fence and attacked her, police said.
When firefighters arrived on the scene, "the dog was still on the victim," Assistant Fire Chief Craig Duke said, and the rescuers had to hit the dog with an ax and a pole to get it off McConnell, officials said.
McConnell was taken to the University of Kansas Medical Center, where she was pronounced dead.
Neighbors told ABC News affiliate KMBC-TV in Kansas City, Mo., that McConnell was so badly injured they hardly recognized her when she was pulled from the garden.
McConnell's son said his mother didn't have a fighting chance. "Besides run, she's defenseless," Chris McConnell said.
Though police have not yet confirmed the breed of the dog that attacked McConnell, neighbors described it as a pit bull.
A number of recent pit bill attacks have spurred new legislation across the country. A California woman, Maureen Faibish, is on trial in San Francisco, accused of felony child endangerment after the family's pit bulls mauled and killed her 12-year-old son.
Closing arguments in her trial concluded Thursday. If convicted, Faibish could face up to 10 years in prison.
In Kansas, pit bulls have been banned in Kansas City, Kan., and in Wyandotte County since 1990
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attacks by pitbulls. I neglected to cite the cases of child dying or being disfigured because they are so sad. I tried to find a case where a chihuahua killed anyone. Guess what I couldn't find one. Enough said!
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be careful smokey all though pitbulls have a reputation and are known for attacking and killing you are singling out a certain group all though fact you may be singled out as a doggie hater. lol
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jhd, do you mean I'm prejudiced? Don't tell my Beagle, Apache.
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Lets say for the sake of argument that most crimes are commited by the swedish? Should we then limit them, or throw them back to sweden?? or how about women on welfare? Tubes tied regardless? How about the hispanic man who killed the father of children because he chose to drink and drive? (multiple dui's prior)
I am not a fan of any offleash dog and neither am I a fan of laws that are againest one breed. It has to be on a case by case basis, not based on the breed of the dog.
Anyone read about the 2 year old strangled by the python in florida? Should we ban snakes?
Birds can be carriers of disease perphaps we should ban them too? And Pools as they kill kids all the time who fall into them. How about cats, and the person who gets scratched then becomes septic and dies? Should we ban cats now too?
Smokey I understand what you are saying, and I am not fond of Pitbulls however...I know they can be very nice dogs. Just as I hate racial profiling I hate breed profiling as it really isn't fair to the breed. Pitbulls have a bad rap, however they aren't all bad. Just as not all those on welfare/section 8 are bad.
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But based on your logic we should not ban anything including grenades and bazookas.
You could be struck by a falling tree and die on the road. You and I would agree that we cant ban trees. Some people can drive drunk and not hurt anyone but we do ban that. We do that because of the reletive risk.
There is a level of risk associated with Pit Bulls that is not the same for most breeds. That is a fact. As far as profiling I have to disagree with you. I watch as I go through airport security a grandma going through the whole wand process and I just dont understand it.
What are the odds of some old lady from Kansas being our next terrorist threat?
You have to take history into account when you decide you want to prevent some sort of behavior. To not do so is not logical.
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I agree with what your saying. My point was and is that I don't think a specific breed of dog should be banned. They are not always attack dogs. I've sat for one who was scared of his own shadow.
I don't agree with breed specific banning.
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My wife and I have raised and bred Border Collies for over 40 years and I can tell you that Border Collies were bred not to bite. Otherwise, they wouldn't be used for herding sheep and cattle!
Pitt Bulls, on the other hand, were bred as attack dogs. No amount of 'tender loving care' is going to change their natural instinct.
I will not subject my grandchildren to the possibility of being attacked by these "oh so friendly" pitt bulls.
Just like roosters raised as fighting cocks, they are of no use and when caught by the police, those fighting cocks are destroyed! And that is a fact.
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I also have a border collie. Ever been pinched by one? I have. Its how they move sheep, they nip their hind legs to get them to turn/whatever. I've been pinched by him multiple times. Didn't break the skin, but did leave a bruise and it hurt. Natural instinct for a border collie is to go after whats running. I hope your grandkids are never pinched by one.
Like I said....Ban Stupid people. Not all pitts are bad, just as all swedes aren't bad. Ban the bad ones but don't blame the whole race.
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Here's just a paragraph from it, the link is http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21001543/
Blacks made up 41 percent of the nation’s 2 million prison and jail inmates in 2006. Non-Hispanic whites made up 37 percent and Hispanics made up 19 percent.
Looking at just the numbers.....I'd say we should ban all the blacks, and non-hispanic whites.
But wait....they aren't all bad.....are they?
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mornsky, as I said, we've been raising Border Collies since we brought our first one back from Scotland in 1968. All three of our adult children also have Border Collies.
In herding, if necessary, they "nip" but never bite. We've never had what you described happen.
All they do, if you allow them to think you are "sheep" is nip at your pants, but never your leg. But when trained for herding sheep, they won't touch the sheep. Now cattle, on the other hand, require the Border Collie to "nip" at the hair on the cattle's hoaves to get them going.
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I've never been bitten by my border however I have been pinched by him and it did hurt. It was when he wanted attention and I wasn't giving it to him as fast as he wanted it. He hasn't done it in a few years now but its something I haven't forgotten.
You were the one who brought up border collies, and Arnie all I'm doing is telling you my experience with mine. He's the best dog, but I wouldn't trust him around kids running either. Not because he'd bite them but because he might pinch them with his front teeth and I know it hurts. All he needs is to see my little yorkie running and he's on the go after her. Its the trait that wants to herd that comes out. I don't know what he herded in his young years(we adopted him at a year) but he's the best dog. But with that being said, I don't have youngins running around my house and if I did I know I'd need to watch them around him. Really you should watch kids with any dog! I would feel ok about 2 of my 3 dogs but the other one I wouldn't trust with kids. If she felt trapped she'd snap at them. She's a pound pup. 40 lb terrier thats scared of everything. She snapped at a group of kids that had surrounded her when she was on her leash. I no longer let kids come up to her because I know she would be a fear biter. Should we ban pound pups because they might bite? As a petsitter I've learned not to fear a breed, but individual dogs. I have watched a family of 3 sharpeis. If you know anything about them you know they could take on a pitbull. They are bred just like Pits to be fighters. (originally) I've also watched a 200 lb rottie and a 220 lb great dane. The sharpeis took the longest for them to get used to me and accept me. Now the wounds I get when I go there are due to nails scratching me. (Nothing like a 60lb dog with long nails jumping on you) Also had 2 dogs attack my dog when I was walking her. (mine was a 1 yr old lab) 1 was a shepard mix the other a smaller mutt. That was scary. I kicked them until they finally left. Do I want to ban shepards and mutts? Naw, unfortunatly S__T happens and life goes on.
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I do understand what you are saying. So by that reasoning being obedience training classes is important. Have you taken your biter for obedience training? Has it helped or do you still keep her away from kids? I understand border collies are bred to herd and nip(by your words) Would how they are raised help prevent that? Or is it in their nature just like a pit bulls nature. Seems a bit contradictory.(just my opinion)
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Smokey,
She isn't actually a biter. (Never bit anyone) She snapped at a kid but never made contact. She has been thru obediance. It helped but Her problem (large problem) is fear. She fears everything. If I'm walking her and she hears cars on the road she trys to get away from them by getting around a corner. The only way I've found to deal with this is to start running with her. It works. As for kids, mine are grown and I have no grandchildren. I think she'd be ok off a leash in her own house. The situation where she snapped at a kid was when there were a group who'd surrounded her. If she could of gotten away from them I'm sure it'd of never happened. She's afraid when you shake towels to fold them, or open and shut cabinet doors in the kitchen, and she'll head outside until the noise subsides or your done folding laundry. She's a very neurotic dog. Why? Great question and the only thing I've figured out is her life before I adopted her. As for the Border Collie, he was found wandering in pleasanton. Never claimed and we adopted him. Shortly after I discovered he has bad hips. My guess is he was used on a farm until they realized his hips wouldn't let him do his job and they got rid of him. Herding is natural to border collies. They move what they are herding by nipping/pinching them. I think Pits have more agressive tendencies however I also think how they are raised either makes them more agressive or turns them into family dogs. They aren't all bad. I've never watched a dog I didn't feel safe around and I have watched pits, bulldogs(who scared off 3 other sitters) and 3 sharpeis. I've been forced to get over my own fear of pitbulls. They aren't my favorite of breeds, however I think you have to look at each dog individually just as you look at people.
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No, No, don't ban bazooka. He only has a few posts left. LOL
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mornsky, you can't compare Swedes with pit bulls.
Although, as a Norwegian we used to recite to poem: "One Thousand Swedes, ran through the weeds, chased by one Norwegian....."
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Arnie,
I used swedes on purpose. I was trying not to be nationality specific and I am 1/4 swede 1/4norwegian. I could of said whites, blacks, etc.
I just don't agree with a specific breed banning. Any dog that has bitten anyone or attacked anyone or anything, needs intervention to prevent worse.
I was bitten by a friends dog when we were walking them and a shepard was loose. I was trying to hang onto him, he was trying to get away and he bit me. (heat of the moment bite), I knew he wasn't a agressive dog he just wanted to get to the shepard and I was preventing him. I was shocked. He broke the skin and I bled. But I knew why it had happened. I was holding him by the collar and he was intent on getting away. Should his breed be banned? He's a mutt! (large mutt) I do not nor have I ever owned a pitbull. However I think what needs to be banned is the stupid people who think owning one is cool, who never take them into obediance classes and think its funny when their dog lunges after another.
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I agree 100% with you Mornsky. I have the same bumper sticker on my vehicle, "Ban Stupid People, NOT dogs". I don't have a pit bull, but know many people who own them including a police officer who has a Belgian Malinois as a working dog, and the Pit Bull is the family dog. I own 3 female Rottweilers, and have never had any problems with aggression that people think are so prevalent with the breed.
Socialization, training is not "tender loving care" that "Arnie" thinks, let him try not socializing and training his dogs we'll see how they turn out .... Actually the true name for Pit Bull is American Staffordshire Terrier -- a breed recognized by the AKC.
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same as guns dont kill people, people do,dogs arent born to kill or act vicious it is how they are taught by thier owners.
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Gee jhd, I been thinking. Would I rather be shot with a gun or chewed up by a pitbull? Hmmm!!
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Land mines dont kill people, people that plant them do. So we should be aloud to mine our fences? What about ICBMs. You draw the line somewhere it is debated as to exactly where.
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.
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so, 4antioch.... are you saying that ALL cocks should have laws set against them? are you saying ALL cocks are dangerous? There is a BIG difference between fighting cocks and regular old cocks. JUST as there is a huge difference between fighting pitts and regular old house dog pitts. This whole argument is dumb. The breed is not the issue, it's the losers that hurt these poor inocent animals. ANYTHING that was born with out a chance of a real and loving life will have problems. Just because the breed is large doesnt mean anything. And that definition that smokey put up was ridiculous.... but the doggie was pretty! ;)
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I agree, this whole argument is dumb. I originally posted this in the hopes that maybe someone had heard about the incident, and would offer some info.
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I agree Marilyn. Everyone has made their point over and over and it appears no one is changing anyone's mind. This is one of those topics, like politics, religion and global warming where people have formed their opinions and no amount of arguing is going to change those opinions.
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to me it is important to know, and to understand, that the cry for more regulation and laws, or even worst, more government, will not change a bit.
the current gov attitude , pick and choose taxes, will "fix" whats wrong, makes me lough.
increase of zig tax will finance health care costs for kids..
take from people with more then 250,000 and spread out to the ones with less...
doctors need to take 50-60% earning cut, or the proposed health care insurance for everybody will not work....
special licenses for pitbull......
and the list is long.....
I will keep my GUNS, my FREEDOM, my MONEY, you can keep the CHANGE
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I surrender LOL
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Drop the weapon! Hands behind your head!
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Some cocks are more dangerous than others...........
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Thanks, Stoney. I think I had forgotten why I kinda dropped off these forums.........
I do like a lot of different breeds of dogs, not a huge fan of pitts, but mostly because I am just not "attracted" to them. I happen to like bird/hunting dogs. I have Beagles now, but definately would not recommend them for just anyone. You really have to research how a breed will fit into your family, lifestyle, etc. I originally wanted a Basset Hound, but then I found out that they cannot swim, and should not really be around water. Each breed has their own quirks. You really have to have to be patient and have a sense of humor with Beagles. They eat everything (just like goats). They are great family dogs, but can not be off leash (if they find a scent, they will take off). Some have a tedency to howl (my neighbors male), oh, and I forgot, that breed will eat their own poo.
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I think Smokey might be a doggie racist....
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I don't even like Greyhounds.
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I agree with you too!
Whenever Pit Bull owners claim that their breed is no more agressive than any other breed of dog, I point them in the direction of actual facts gathered by the federal government on the site below:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dog50.pdf
According the the government's study of human fatalities caused by dogs (and this does not count in the number of children/adults/and pets who have to live with a life-long physical disability after surviving a Pit Bull attack), the number of Pit Bulls and Pit Bull Mixes who have managed to kill humans far out numbers kill ratios achieved by other breeds:
From 1979 to 1994 (the latest study they show) here's how the different breeds stack up:
Pit Bulls --- 57 human fatalities
Rottweilers --- 19 human fatalities
Shepherd --- 17 human fatalities
Husky --- 12 human fatalities
Malamute --- 12 human fatalities
Doberman --- 8 human fatalities
Chow --- 6 human fatalities
Great Dane --- 5 human fatalities
Saint Bernard --- 4 human fatalities
Akita --- 4 human fatalities
**Pit Bull mixed-breeds also accounted for 10 additional human kills bringing the total kills to 67...proof that unlike what Pit Bull owners will tell you...they ARE a very, very dangerous breed.
Not only that, but, as I mentioned before, these statistics ONLY count human fatalities and not those who have been seriously injured but survived. Think of what the actual number would be if the government also counted all the children, adults and older adults who have been maimed and/or crippled for life by this breed and you can imagine the magnitude of the total damage this man-made breed has been responsible for.
Our own family pet, was attacked by an un-neutered Pit Bull, while the owner stood by and smiled, and because our dog's only defense is running, twisting and jumping (it's a spayed Boxer female) she was unable to free herself from the powerful jaws of her attacker and as a consequence has a 12" scar on the right side of her rib cage. It could have been much, much worse. I hate to think what could have happened had the Pit Bull attacked our dog in her own backyard, if we were inside our house.
Pit Bulls were originally created for one purpose only "to fight and to kill other dogs". They took English Bull Dogs and mixed in Terriers (who have been breed to kill small rodents, etc.) and created a super large "killer terrier" (with muscles)...a veritable "killing-machine-on-legs" and these new hybrids were used exclusively for "sporting hall" dog fights where attendess would bet on which dog would survive the dog fight. Pit Bulls were successful as dog fighters, but what I don't think the creators of this new breed were prepared to take credit for, is that it ended up loving to go after and kill other, larger "things"...sometimes things on 2 legs instead of 4.
Another excuse you'll often hear Pit Bull owners tell you is that their dog LOVES them...well, yes it does love THEM, BUT you and your pet dog are NOT part of their pack/family and they probably DON'T love you or your pet dog, or your child, etc.
Dog Pack mentality is powerful and yes, Pit Bulls will recognize their owners and their immeditate family as "pack leaders" but outside their immediate home all hell can break loose and many times does.
I really think with stats like those above, that breeding Pit Bulls should be prohibited by municipalities. God did not create these powerful killers, man did and man needs to look reality in the face and realise his mistake and rectify it.
Cities could require all Pit Bulls to be spayed or neutered before sexual maturity and then levy heavy fines on anyone caught producing a Pit Bull or Pit Bull Mix litter.
It's frightening to know that you and your good dog just might have the very unfortunate experience of meeting up with a vicious Pit Bull someday, just as our poor Boxer did and face the scary consequences.
--Cece
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Unfortunatly its not just pitts that attack. The dogs that attacked my lab were a sheperd mix and a mutt. Any time you walk your dog you risk a attack by a dog thats out without his owners.
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is that those breeds and their OWNERS need much more training. Maybe instead of banning a breed we should require training and licensing first of someone before they can obtain that breed.
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While we're at it, why don't we require training and licensing before people can have kids?
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Just an outstanding idea! And neuter them if they can't pass the exit exam...
Roy Gursky .. http://gurskyranch.com
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And those statistics show that pitbulls are three to four times as dangerous as other breeds. That alone makes them a dangerous breed.
Hum, and not one fatality due to a Border Collie!
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Rotts have gained on pitts in the recent years. =)
Pits have decreased in fatals while Rotts have gained.
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What I found interesting about those numbers is that the number of pitbull fatalitys has dropped while the number of rottweilers has increased? Why is this? Also most the fatalitys were in the 1-10 year old age group. All but 1 chow was un-neutered. (this shows the importance of neutering your male large dogs) Of those fatals, quite a few were in doggie packs out of their owners terrority. Secure your yards!! And there were some where the dog was on a chain. (only good for increasing aggresive behavior) My personal thought is that if you have to chain up your dog, you shouldn't have him, as you aren't able to properly care for him. I was shocked to see that even the docile Great Dane had a murder rap on him. I love great danes and have owned several. What this study told me is: mostly they were commited by un-neutered males, often in packs of 2. These dogs are not the best choice for a family dog when you have young children, tho again it depends on the upbringing of the dog.