Posted on Wednesday, 7/01/2009 - 3:42 p.m. PDT — by liberty2
Right you are !! The extravagant benefits for our public employees must be brought in line. Arnold ask the legis for a mild reduction from 3% formula to 2% / yr calculations for retirement. Dummies didn't do it. I Love that Orange Co voters, 3 to 1 voted to require the PUBLIC to approve any increases in pensions!!.....voters are the one that mostly do NOT HAVE pensions !! Ca legislature should have acted....now we'll have to do a prop13 type pension reduction that will be far stricker..dummies will be sorry ! And, who would believe BART would be SO stupid to want to strike !! They are too ignorant to have any shame. The GREED is stagering. These people don't get it !! Any of them...they are SO sheltered, protected, and removed from REAL LIFE employment realities like, company closures, pay REDUCTIONS, layoffs, NO pensions, NO dental, huge CO-pays, etc. etc. etc. They are about to join the real world! We are out of options ourselves ! Wake Up!
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 208
Why don't you push for two tier benefits and then YOU can apply for Fireman or Police officer and THEN watch YOU cry. I'll bet none of you complainers thinks twice about paying to watch sports so the players can make MILLIONS and they don't risk their lives for us. I'll bet you keep on re-electing the politicans who have the best retirement anywhere and yet they also not only don't risk their lives for us they don't even listen to us about immigration. I don't see any fireman or police driving around in Lexus's and Cad SUV's, I don't see any living in million dollar homes and having yacths. They are NOT the problem and cause of this economy try putting the blame where it lies. BUSH and the REPUBLICAN Congress appointed the directors who did not pay any attention to banking at all, BUSH's FDIC director told him LONG before the real estate collapse that it would happen without action. BUSH did nothing, Bush let the trade difference with CHINA go from Clinton's 83 million to over 350 BILLION. Now you want to punish those who risk thier lives for us for what the REPUBLICANS DID!!!! Shut up and go away.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 1191
We all know they are in firm control in the state of california. Thanks so much for your intelligent post.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
Wattshill brings up the tired comparison of sports stars and government workers. Aside from the fact that sports stars satisfy far more people's needs than public employees, the key difference is obvious -- we all have the option of paying to support sports stars, or not. But we MUST by law pay taxes for our new aristocracy -- union public workers.
I don't care what sports stars make -- I don't pay their salaries. I don't go to their games. I DO care about the salaries and perks I DO have to pay for. Public workers.
No, we will not "shut up and go away." We will fight you tooth and nail. The battle lines are clearly drawn -- public employees vs. everyone else.
Joined: May 2006
Current Posts: 166
"...Aside from the fact that sports stars satisfy far more people's needs than public employees, ..."
That has to be one of the most idiotic statements I've heard on this board in a VERY long time and based on the idiots already on this board that says a lot! With people like you leading the way, I have no fear that my hard earned money and benefits will be stolen from me.
Thanks for such an intelligent comment, Dick.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
I realize it's a hard concept for you to grasp, "TrueHoesty1," but sports stars are paid a lot because a lot of people find that their lives are a bit better (their choice, but not mine) from the stars' performances. Otherwise the fans wouldn't VOLUNTARILY pay the price of admission, and sports stars would not be so highly paid.
Did I mention VOLUNTARILY PAY?
Joined: May 2006
Current Posts: 166
You can bloviate all you like but your ignorance seems to only exceed your arrogance.
The salaries of yesterday's athlete may have been paid by the "price of admission", but today those same ridiculously inflated salaries are paid PRIMARILY with lucrative TV contracts, not gate receipts.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
TrueHonesty1: The salaries of yesterday's athlete may have been paid by the "price of admission", but today those same ridiculously inflated salaries are paid PRIMARILY with lucrative TV contracts, not gate receipts.
I don't know the percent of compensation comes from each factor, but I DO know that neither costs me -- a casual sports fan -- a dime. It all involves voluntary interaction. If the sports stars were not popular on TV, the TV contracts would not be lucrative. These athletes are simply performers, and they get paid what people and business deem they are valued.
Not so with public employees. You elect your own politicans as your employers, cut a sweet union deal (which includes your reelection support and the same pensions for the politicians) and then use police, guns, judges and jails to forcibly extract your compensation from taxpayers.
And you really can't see the difference between your coercive system and the voluntary system of professional athletes.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Hey (Mental Furball) "Dick",
You obviously forgot about that most professional sports teams ARE financed with public money, remember Taxpayers? What do you think builds their stadiums, and subsidizes professional athletes enormous salaries, so YOU HAVE PAID A DIME ... MORE THAN A DIME. Gee can you Petco Park in your own backyard, Gee and I bet you use the freeway system in San Diego or the trolley, or the parks --- All paid for with taxpayer money --- Wow what a concept, if we had to follow your stupid ideas, we would have nothing ......
Oh that's right, we can't bombard you with facts, you will just stick your thumbs in your ears, and chant, "Niener niener niener, I didn't pay, nanananananha".
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
You tippling again, Harry? Plus it seems you have anger management problems. Do they still let you bring your handgun to work? Not a good idea.
Again we see your straw man argument that I favor no taxation for services. I DO favor paying for essential government services. Can we put that to bed, Harry?
Don't think I favor such sports subsidies. I've taken our local football stadium subsidy to the state Supreme Court (and lost). I had a big hand in getting the size of the Petco Ballpark subsidy substantially reduced (but far from eliminated). You are right -- that part DOES cost us, and that part I fight against.
I'm glad to pay for the freeways (via gas taxes). Unfortunately much of that revenue gets siphoned off for "mass transit" which moves relatively few people at incredibly high cost.
One thing I've noticed about the public employee unions -- they support or at least are neutral on all such subsidy spending. And then they complain that they aren't getting paid enough while puzzling over the dearth of government revenue available for their salaries and benefits.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Hey "Mental Furball",
You obviously are rich enough to leave California, why don't you move to another planet, and take your Idiotic Ideas of no taxes, and let's get something for nothing and take all the fools that think that will happen with you. Gee you don't have the guts to publish what your background is, what is it?
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
YOUR new moniker is "Johnny one note." You keep presenting the same "no taxes" argument, when only you are suggesting that option. It must be tough having nothing of substance to say.
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 208
You would rather go see sports people who take drugs (good thing for our kids to see) and abuse animals and OH YEA this creates a lot of work for the police thus causing more overtime which you add to their salaries as though they were not forced to work overtime and be without sleep and away from thier families. So you just go to the games pay the druggies a fortune and keep right on complaining. That is until you need a cop or fireman anyway. God I hate educated people with no common sense. What did you do for a real living? Walmart.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 273
exception of the typical Democratic rant about Bush and the Republicans being totally to blame for our economic problems....WRONG, it was started by the DUMBOCRATS with the Community Reinvestment Act under CARTER in 1977 and then morphed into the sub-prime mortgage mess that was completely throttled by the Dems lead by Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Gregory Meeks and the list goes on. Bush via McCann tried to bring it under control in 2003 and was totally rebuffed by the previously listed morons. It's on video tape that is still available via the Canadian internet, because our friends the Dems removed it from the American internet because it was a little embarassing for them I suppose.
Then that witch Pelosi has the nerve to get up in front of the house and spew that crap about Bush during the TARP hearings. This naturally upset the Republicans, who knew the real story, and they backed out on their agreement with the Dems to vote in favor of the first TARP bill. What a bunch of hippocrites!! If you don't believe what I'm saying, check it out for yourself it is on the net and it is not doctored. It is video of the actual house hearings with the fanne/freddi regulators trying to tell these idiots that those entities were out of control and needed to be reigned in. Barney, Maxine, and Gregory all tell the poor guys to go pound salt, that they were just doing "ducky".....we know now that was sure a bunch of bunk!!
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 902
go hold your hose in your hand moron
what does your pensions that are bankrupting california have anything to do with Pres. Bush you retard? its not even de rigour to blame Bush for the problems of the world anymore. what is your Messiah Barrack Hussein Obama doing? WORSE. the defecit GROWS the trade imbalance GROWS now taxes will INCREASE so will UNEMPLOYMENT
and i know fireman and police making $200-300k per year and they drive Ferrari's, Mercedes, etc so phah q
Joined: May 2005
Current Posts: 225
There is not one job in the Public Sector that does not have a comparable task or assignment in the Private Sector. That being said, how about making a comparison of not only the wages being offered, but also the benefit packages offered by the Public Sector. Where in the Private Sector can an individual get 3% per year and retire prior to age 65? It’s time to bring these jobs back into line and if the people who now have these jobs think they can do better in the Private Sector, that’s what “Rolling Over” your retirement system is all about. Go For It!
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 34
Funny all you clueless folks who think everyone gets 3%@50. That's only safety members (police, fire, etc), who more than deserve that and should be REQUIRED to retire around then. I sure don't want some geriatric cop with arthritis trying to shoot at a guy.
There are, however, a LOT of people who don't deserve the retirement they get, and that's all non-safety employees. The push for better benefits over the past few years has given these desk jockeys, useless managers, shovel holders, and pencil pushers a retirement better than they need. Roll non-safety retirement plans back to the 2%@60 level, leave safete alone.
Of course, none of you are paying these retirements, except as a small portion of the employees salary. The employee is paying more than you do for their retirement. And PERS is over 100% funded on all their accounts, so the whole "unfunded liability" crap and "the taxpayers make up the shortfall" stuff is moot.
Maybe instead of whining about how "bad" your retirement is you should push to require defined-benefit retirement for all workers. Companies can easily afford it, if they stopped giving their CEO's and shareholders seven figure bonuses (also done on taxpayer money).
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
<<Companies can easily afford[defined pension plans]>>
Oh really? Almost every company in America with defined benefit plans (except monopoly utilities) has of necessity changed to defined contribution plans, or gone out of business. It's amazing how ignorant government employees are about the real world.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 34
Yeah, they can, if they stopped paying out overly generous bonuses and dividends to the least deserving employees. As long as you pay in enough to cover it, there's no problem. The cities & counties that have had issues over the years are the ones who tried to run their own retirement plan and didn't fund it properly because they were betting on investments covering the cost. PERS tells agencies every year how much employees and employers need to pay in to cover their costs, and they've never had a problem maintaining their accounts without any bailout from the taxpayers. Too bad the same can't be said for private industry.
It's amazing how ignorant (I mean greedy) private employers are. And sorry, I work public AND private, so I see the best (worst?) of both worlds and how much bull excrement is shoveled by both. Government is all about waste: private is all about greed and avarice. Neither is about giving a good service to the public or employees.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
Deadshot42: And PERS is over 100% funded on all their accounts, so the whole "unfunded liability" crap and "the taxpayers make up the shortfall" stuff is moot.
How can you type that with a straight face? Or maybe you did a "copy and paste" from something you wrote 10 yeasrs ago.
Stunning.
Who told you PERS is 100+% funded? NOT PERS!!
Yet I thank you for displaying what I believe to be widespread ignorance by the public employees about their own pension plans. Or widespread dishonesty.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 34
Deadshot42: And PERS is over 100% funded on all their accounts, so the whole "unfunded liability" crap and "the taxpayers make up the shortfall" stuff is moot.
How can you type that with a straight face? Or maybe you did a "copy and paste" from something you wrote 10 yeasrs ago.
That's according to the latest information available to me, right off their website. The form is dated July 2009, the account funding info is on page 4. http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/about/facts/general.pdf
The only ignorance is that which is spread by pandering self-interest trolls such as your organization.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
Deadshot42: [About CalPERS being 100+% funded.] That's according to the latest information available to me, right off their website. The form is dated July 2009, the account funding info is on page 4. http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/about/facts/general.pdf
The only ignorance is that which is spread by pandering self-interest trolls such as your organization.
Goodness gracious!!!! Are you serious???
This is like debating someone in a paralell world through a time portal. Your above reference is indeed the latest 2009 CalPERS report, but your page 4 100% funding numbers are dated 6/30/07. It takes two years for CalPERS to put out these official numbers. IE: Your numbers are two years old.
Perhaps you've heard that there's been a bit of an economic hiccup since then.
Since June 2007, the S&P 500 index has dropped over 40%. California real estate (in which CalPERS has made extensive investments in risky ventures) has dropped about 30%. Some of the go-go hedge funds CalPERS invested in turned out to be crooked.
Ya think just maybe CalPERS is no longer 100% funded? Ya think???
Are you simply too stooopid to know that the fund has plunged since June 2007? I think not. You seem quite intelligent. Which leaves only one explanation -- you are a dishonest cop.
Joined: May 2006
Current Posts: 166
Mr. Rider,
It's obvious you are a well educated man who clearly has more than a pedestrian knowledge of the issues to which you are attempting to raise awareness. I applaud you for your zealous efforts to use the democratic process to instill change where you truly believe change is needed and, of course, I'm appreciative of your service in Vietnam as well as the US Naval Reserve.
That being said, I do completely disagree with your point of view and would still prefer you not use words you can't spell, but I will no longer let that, admittedly, minor issue distract me from your message. I truly believe you, unlike many of the others on this board, are deserving of my respect for your tireless efforts in eliciting change by use of the democratic process and will attempt to show my opposition to your posts in a more respectful manner.
Regards,
TrueHonesty1
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming..........
Joined: Feb 2008
Current Posts: 251
at one time, but not now. Decades ago, the lower salaries payed by public agencies were augmented by secure, and not very expensive, benefit packages. The success of the public employee unions in raising compensations, relative to the private sector, means that it is time for a change. Corrupt agencies, such as the WCCUSD, have used loose oversight to loot the public purse for decades to come, however, they are the exception. Adjustments to pension and medical packages are needed for legitimate agencies, saving retribution for the deserving scoundrels of the WCCUSD, and their ilk.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 1191
Evertime you listen to the radio we hear from some union group about this or that.
The Greg Pubst series on rebuild california makes it sound like he is on the side of the people but in reality it is a union money grab. Then there is the teachers union, the service union.
These guys wield more political power than any other group in california. They killed Gov Arnie when he tried to reform our state. He has coward to them ever since.
They are evil and must be stopped.
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 166
No other state allows police, fire fighters or prison guards to retire, early, at 90%. Police and fire pensions now account for 20% of the budgests of most cities and counties and that wil soon double unless this scam is ended soon.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
I guess you want 60 and 65 year olds running around being cops and firefighters ... Ever really sit down and talk to people in that age group, it is a physiological fact their minds are closed, they are less tolerant, and they don't have the same reactions.
So in effect what you are proposing is that cops and firefighters should work until they are 65 or 70? and waste additional "precious" taxpayer dollars because they might get injured, how dare them get injured. It is quite obvious you have never done this job, you are like all the other "taxpayer group" members who want something for nothing .... Don't like it here in California, wanna see the economy vaporize, penalize retired public employees because right now they are the only retired people who can afford to buy anything.
Oh and another thing, those of you who don't have health insurance, dental insurance and a decent retirement, there is nothing in the world in stopping you in applying, in dare I say, a job as a police officer or firefighter, so quit bashing the people who you call in an emergency or in a perceived emergency because they want a decent retirement.
One more thing, public employees pay their fair share of taxes --- believe me, and any one of them who criticizes "high taxes" is too an idiot-- because they obviously forgot what pays their salaries and benefits.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Anyone who thinks public employees --- Police and Firefighters have too extravagant retirements are full of baloney !!! You put in the weird hours, exposure to every disease known to manking, and deal with all the bull @@@@ you Mr. Public dishes out, you think you can do the job, well the application process is open, and maybe you will try to run the gauntlet of 20-30 years and most likely you too will drop dead after being retired for five years after spending the 20-30 doing a thankless job for the patronizing, penny pinching Republicans ... give it a shot, and say how easy it is ..............
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
I am outraged that a retired policeman can rack in over a lifetime what a CEO makes in one year for running a company into the ground!
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 273
myself. I was starting to worry that I was the only one on this board that didn't have his/her head fully impacted up their rectum. Thanks a lot, I needed a breath of fresh air!!!
Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 1304
There are many that feel the way you do but we have learned that those you are arguing with have their (closed) mind made up and to continue is the same as beating your head against the wall. When you stop the pain goes away so why continue ?
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
The application process is unnecessarily arduous for urban firefighters, and there are FAR more qualified applicants than there are jobs. I know that in the city of San Diego over 2,000 applicants are received for about 30 positions, on average. And each applicant has passed the EMT1 course!
So many applications for so few openings tells the employer (us taxpayers) that we are paying far more than we need for the job.
Indeed, 3/4 of firefighters in America are VOLUNTEERS.
I love my urban firefighters, but I could love them just as much for half the price.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
See today's PARADE magazine insert -- an excellent article saluting our nation's volunteer firefighters.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
One seldom understood part of the systemic “defined benefit” pension scandal now crushing most state and local governments is the rampant dishonesty of the pension actuaries. This applies to both in-house government actuaries and the “hired guns” from the outside which supposedly are providing objective information.
The adage to remember is “follow the money.”
The government actuaries’ conflict of interest is obvious – they get the same pensions that they oversee. Unrealistically optimistic actuarial assumptions result in them getting higher pensions and paying less into the pension fund as employees.
Less obvious is the huge conflict of interest of outside actuary consultants. To quote another trite but true cliché, “He who pays the piper, calls the tune.” Such consultants are usually hired by senior government staffers who want their pensions as high as possible. The consultants who get such contracts fully understand that they are expected to provide Pollyannish analysis to justify increasing pensions while underfunding the pension funds.
Stated differently – If an actuarial consultant does indeed provide accurate, objective, cautionary advice on pensions, it is unlikely that they will be retained as a consultant, or indeed that they will ever win another government consulting contract. Over time, the most dishonest actuaries win most of the government pension contracts.
And I’m talking about the top actuarial firms in the nation. This is quite similar to the accounting dishonesty that brought down Arthur Anderson and other respected accounting firms. But in the arcane world of pension accounting, the level of dishonesty is harder to detect than regular corporate accounting, and hence more widespread.
One dissident actuary, John Bury, has been pointing out this industrywide conflict of interest – and the magnitude of the consequences. Consider this latest article from this fellow concerning the “Soprano” pensions and healthcare of New Jersey employees.
http://blog.nj.com/njv_johnbury/2009/05/real_number_on_nj_health_care.html
EXCERPTS: When the 2008 pension reports came out they placed New Jersey's unfunded liability at $34.4 billion. I place it at $133 billion now.
State unfunded healthcare is projected at $59.7 billion. I figure it’s around $150 billion.
Not exactly chump change!
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
Breaking Bad: California vs. the Other States
by Richard Rider, Chairman, San Diego Tax Fighters
Version 1.45 Revised 29 June, 2009
Here’s a depressing comparison of California taxes and economic climate with the rest of the states. The news is breaking bad, and getting worse:
California has the 2nd highest state income tax in the nation. 9.55% at $48,000. 10.55% at $1,000,000
By far the highest state sales tax in the nation. 8.25% (not counting local sales taxes)
Highest state car tax in the nation – at least double any other state. 1.15% per year on value of vehicle.
Corporate income tax rate is the highest in the West. 8.84%
2009 Business Tax Climate ranks 48th in the nation.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/15.html
Fourth highest capital gains tax 9.55%
http://www.thereibrain.com/realestate-blog/capital-gains-tax-rates-state-by-state/109/
Second highest gasoline tax (58.3 cents) in the nation (April, 2009). When gas is $3.00+/gallon, we are surely numero uno – because unlike many states, we charge sales tax on gasoline purchases (built into the price).
http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/
Fourth highest unemployment rate in the nation. (May, 2009) 11.5%
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm
California’s 2009 “Tax Freedom Day” (the day the average taxpayer stops working for government and start working for oneself) is again the fourth worst date in the nation – up from 28th worst in 1994.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/387.html
To offset lower state revenues, 29 states are proposing 2009 state tax and fee increases totaling $24 billion. California, with 12% of the nation’s population, is proposing 47% of that increase (6/5/09).
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/04/news/economy/states_budget_crises/index.htm
1 in 5 in LA County receiving public aid.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-welfare22-2009feb22,0,4377048.story
California prison guards highest paid in the nation.
http://www.caltax.org/caltaxletter/2008/101708_fraud1.htm
California teachers easily the highest paid in the nation.
http://www.nea.org/home/29402.htm (CA has the second lowest student test scores)
California now has the lowest bond ratings of any state, edging out Louisiana.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/19/BA7F16JLKH.DTL
California ranks 44th worst in “2008 lawsuit climate.”
http://www.instituteforlegalreform.com/component/ilr_featured_tools/29/item/LAI/19.html
In 2005 (latest figures), for every dollar Californians sent to D.C. in taxes, we got back 78 cents – 43rd worst.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/22685.html
America’s top CEO’s rank California “the worst place in which to do business” for the fourth straight year (3/2009). But here’s the interesting part – they think California is a great state to live (primarily for the great climate) – they just won’t bring their businesses here because of the oppressive tax and regulatory climate.
Consider this quote from the survey (a conclusion reflected in the rankings of the characteristics of the state): “California has huge advantages with its size, quality of work force, particularly in high tech, as well as the quality of life and climate advantages of the state. However, it is an absolute regulatory and tax disaster.”
http://tinyurl.com/cyvufy
California, a destitute state, still gives away college education at fire sale prices. Our community college tuition is by far the lowest in the nation. How low? Nationwide, the average community college tuition is 4.5 times higher than California CC’s. This ridiculously low tuition devalues education to students – resulting in a 30+% drop rate for class completion. In addition, 2/3 of California CC students pay no tuition at all – filling out a simple unverified “hardship” form that exempts them from any tuition payment, or receiving grants and tax credits for their full tuition.
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/capitolalertlatest/020722.html
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jun/29/1n29fees225829-two-year-colleges-fees-likely-rise-/
On top of that, California offers thousands of absolutely free adult continuing education classes – a sop to the upper middle class. In San Diego, over 1,400 classes for everything from baking pastries to ballroom dancing are offered totally at taxpayer expense.
http://www.sdce.edu
California residential electricity costs an average of 35.4% more than the national average. For industrial use, CA electricity is 56.2% higher than the national average (2007).
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/fig7p5.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
It costs 38% more to build solar panels in California than in Tennessee – which is why European corporations have invested $2.3 billion in two Tennessee manufacturing plants to build solar panels for our state.
http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/blog/jack-stewart/more-solar-companies-producing-elsewhere-sell-california
Consider California’s net domestic migration (migration between states). From April, 2000 through June, 2008 (8 years, 2 months) California has lost a NET 1.4 million people. The departures slowed this past year only because people couldn’t sell their homes.
http://www.mdp.state.md.us/msdc/Pop_estimate/Estimate_08/table5.pdf
These are not welfare kings and queens departing. They are the young, the educated, the productive, the ambitious, the wealthy (such as Tiger Woods), and retirees seeking to make their pensions provide more bang for the buck. The irony is that a disproportionate number of these seniors are retired state and local government employees fleeing the state that provides them with their opulent pensions – in order to avoid the high taxes that these same employees pushed so hard through their unions.
As taxes rise and jobs disappear, we lose our tax base, continuing California’s state and local fiscal death spiral. This spiral must stop NOW.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Hey Richard, your new name on the board is "Mental Furball"
I think there should be a "pay as you go" system, in other words, if you are having chest pains, need the police for a perceived "emergency" you should be charged at the time services are rendered. Get rid of taxpayer based public safety, yeah that's the ticket, then you can "Pay as you go", fend for yourself fool, that's the way you think it should be shouldn't it ? Nothing is FREE, and nothing is guaranteed except that one day we will die.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
Brock, you present a straw man argument I didn't make. I WANT government services -- especially public safety. I just don't want to pay Nordstrom prices for them.
Doubtless you shop at Nordstrom and Tiffanys (right?), I shop at Costco and WalMart. But at least we each make our decisions with our OWN money.
You want us taxpayers to buy government services from Nordstroms so you can live high on the hog, and you want to ENFORCE your desires upon us using coercion. No dissent allowed or condoned.
Not a persuasive position, except, of course, to your fellow government employees. The battle line is clearly drawn between state and local govt workers -- and everyone else.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Oh yeah like I live high on the hog ... I'm so independently wealthy, well my enemy you have another thing coming, like I drive a Lexus, a Mercedes and live in huge house that is way over my head. Keep dreaming, your gonna have to pay for public safety, and it ain't cheap .... If you want quality people, YOU HAVE OFFER QUALITY PAY AND BENEFITS --- Gee I often hear that repeated from the corporate world --- AND I heard it when I was in the military when they were offering reenlistment bonuses, you gonna attack the men and women in the armed forces next ???? Yeah I read how you were in Viet Nam, and in the Naval Reserve yeah okay, but the problem is what was good for you then, isn't what's good for you now ... Isn't that true? Get a life and quit looking for a tax dollar under every rock.
Wake up from your dream, because your dream of cheap public safety is over from the equipment that is needed all the way to the salaries and benefits. I pay taxes just like you you stupid jerk, just because I'm a public employee doesn't make me exempt, so in a way I'm self-employed you pompass piece of feces.
Another thing, retired public employees leave California because California sucks with idiots like you running around wanting to tamper with a good thing, that they earned after working 25-30 years, that idiots like you are jealous of.
What's the matter Dick?, You didn't have the brains or psychological stamina to make it as a cop or firefighter, so now you start this hate campaign. You can't have the best of both worlds -- Good Service for FREE.
You have a right to say what you want, as do I, but don't insult me or the other 100,000 public safety professionals statewide with your narrow minded, me first comments.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
You inadvertently made a great point, Brock. A disproportionate number of state and local government employees are leaving CA so their pensions will buy far more bang for the buck -- and especially to avoid the onerous California taxes. The irony is that these same parasites spent their careers supporting their unions' efforts to get taxes RAISED to pay for their inordinately high salaries and benefits.
Remember, a retiree takes his taxpayer pension out of state and totally avoids the California income tax. As Brock, points out, this happens a LOT. It's a increasing drain on our state's economy.
Thanks, Brock.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
your welcome !! but that is not the only thing that is causing a drain on the state's economy, and you know it.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
You didn't answer the question that was posed to you Dick,
"What's the matter Dick?, You didn't have the brains or psychological stamina to make it as a cop or firefighter, so now you start this hate campaign. You can't have the best of both worlds -- Good Service for FREE."
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
That's not much of a question, Ossifer. Of course, if you had me alone in a room with your night stick, you could keep asking that "question" until you'd beaten whatever answer you wanted out of me. Bet it galls you that I'm out of reach.
Given that I'm 63, I doubt the police would hire me.
When I came out of the Navy in my 20's, public service was just that -- low pay in exchange for modest benefits and good job security while working at a stately pace. Now the government worker pay is usually significantly above the private sector, the benefits are several times private sector benefits, retirement is a decade or more earlier, and the job security is better than ever.
If only your predecessor union thugs had told me how successful they were going to be, raping the taxpayer, I might have given it some thought.
Naahhh.
Johnnie one note -- "service for free." No one says that but you. Of course, I've pointed out your mental disability before. I guess you have to live with it. Sadly, so does your family -- assuming they haven't left you by now.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 902
Did you get your GED? yes Did you play football in High School? yes Do you need a job that only requires working 30 hours per week? yes Did you take the SAT? no
YOU'RE IN!!!!
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Richard,
Even I though I strongly disagree with your efforts to blame all of the State's financial woes on current, retired and future retirees, I respect your ability to air your views. However, since you are a retired public employee (US Naval Reserve), and obviously live high on the hog in Scripps Ranch (I'm familiar with San Diego County), you need to keep your opinions in check about extravagant retirements of public employees. The public employees I know who have recently retired after 30 years of service to the community, aren't living in any areas similar to Scripps Ranch, they would more than likely be living in communities like El Cajon, Santee and Lemon Grove.
The problem with the state's finances lies in the fact that so many insane laws MANDATING so many public programs that counties and cities SHALL implements and enforce, regardless of the revenue draw those programs create, that in effect has caused a financial drain on the system that for so many years has had to rely on property tax and sales tax revenue, aside from the fact that Prop. 13 has decimated the government's ability to collect property taxes, now don't get me wrong, I am not for property taxes that are similar to the astronomical rates that are forced upon say, Texas homeowners, but when businesses who own HUGE plots of land get away with not paying their fair share, now that is when something is wrong.
It's easy in this economy to bash public employees, but the truth is how many "bashers" would be willing to accept the ridiculous reductions in benefits that groups like yours support? They are on the bash public employees bandwagon now, but they are not out there working weird hours, missing their kids' first birthday, Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc. Sure they (cops and firefighters) applied knowing full well that neither police work or firefighting is NOT a family friendly occupation, but don't go so far as to think they are in cahoots with "De Unyon Boesses" (As Governor Arnie stated) to rip off the taxpayers when in fact they all pay their fair share to the State and the Feds.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
I'm done with this idiotic discussion
FINALLY! Something we can agree on.
BTW, there are a TON of government employees in Scripps Ranch. On three of the four sides of my house, the neighbor is a govt employee (in one house both hubby and wife are govt employees).
Years ago, not so. Now more than ever.
And BTW, I tell everyone that, if you are not going to be a govt employee, marry one. I did. A teacher. And yes, I've fought over the years against teacher overcompensation as well.
I don't fault you for TAKING the money -- I fault you and your kind for thinking you are worth it, ENTITLED to it, and that the world would come to an end if you weren't making $100K plus and retiring on $90K or so.
Bye bye, cop.
Joined: May 2006
Current Posts: 166
I'm a little disappointed in your antics and name calling. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean:
A) They are cops (or firefighters)
B) If they are cops that they would resort to the antics you like to stereotype
I strenuously disagree with you and your position. I absolutely believe I'm worth what I'm paid and as I do my job each and every day as directed by my superiors and as described in the job position posted by the city in which I work I do believed I'm ENTITLED to the pay I've EARNED. I never once believed the world would end should I not make the salary I am but as I am doing the job I am sworn to do and I do it better than I'm required to do I'm ENTITLED to the pay I've EARNED.
Are you too not entitled to the pay you've earned? I think you are and to say anything otherwise would be disingenuous to try and make your argument.
As someone that purports to be professional, I thought you would refrain from the name calling and snide remarks when confronted with opposing views. Is that how you deal with the attorneys for the opposing side in your real life dealings? I doubt it. Why resort to it here?
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
No this is how this guy seriously deals with people in life, that's why he has probably lost some court cases. Richard needs to stay in his own backyard, San Diego County.
Don't respond to this clown.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
I do mirror posting on comment boards. If my opponent is civil, so am I. If not, I'm not.
You like to pretend you favor civil discourse. Let's see.
Truehonesty1, here was your VERY FIRST post to me:
"...Aside from the fact that sports stars satisfy far more people's needs than public employees, ..."
That has to be one of the most idiotic statements I've heard on this board in a VERY long time and based on the idiots already on this board that says a lot! With people like you leading the way, I have no fear that my hard earned money and benefits will be stolen from me.
Thanks for such an intelligent comment, Dick.
You set the tone. I responded. Same for Brock.
Perhaps cops like Brock get used to bullying people around -- it's a significant part of the job. Then they are stunned when someone stands up to them and returns the hostility -- and they can't beat, arrest or shoot them in response.
Joined: May 2006
Current Posts: 166
Long before I posted what I did in regards to your stereotyping police officers and calling them names I ALSO posted a mea culpa of sorts and accepted responsibility for my earlier post to you.
In that mea culpa I stated I would attempt to be more civil should I respond to your postings.
I'm disappointed you pick and choose which posts you respond to in order to fashion your arguments. I expected more from you. You and I both know my last response to you was civil and on point. Your's however.......
As far as cops beating, arresting or shooting those that stand up to them...Well, those particular cops have never stood up to those on a skirmish line during a time of civil disobedience.
Joined: May 2006
Current Posts: 166
I see you pick and choose your arguments. You quoted from my FIRST post to you of which I only called you the nickname for Richard. Nothing from you in response to the other two postings that WERE civil.
Maybe you just like to respond to the ridiculous and absurd. Interesting.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
I don't fault you for TAKING the money -- I fault you and your kind for thinking you are worth it, ENTITLED to it, and that the world would come to an end if you weren't making $100K plus and retiring on $90K or so.
I seriously doubt that I will be making that much money in retirement, it will be more like 45,000 a year -- seriously, and paying a portion of medical insurance and NO dental insurance, yeah Mr. Tax Dodger, a CalPERS retirement at that. I'm not a chief of police anywhere, and wouldn't be one for all the money in the world ... I find it funny how you think you are taunting me, writing stupid comments, etc. Your not, and to be honest I don't really take you serious, because you have no credibility, your wife's a teacher and you are against public employees, gee isn't that like pissing in your own swimming pool, and you were an "ossifer" in the Navy ?? I wonder what your Fitreps were like ..........
Bye, bye Mental Furball, tax evader.
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
$45K a year retirement, Harry? How many years will you have when you retire?
To make a $45K pension, you'll have worked only 15-17 years, and not made sargeant. When did you become a cop -- age 40? That's not long enough to consider you a career police officer. Or are you once again just being dishonest, like when you are on the stand testifying about a case?
Be specific. NAME your jurisdiction.
No Harry, I'm not against public employees. I LOVE public employees. I'm against OVERCOMPENSATION of public employees, and dishonest public employees. Sad you can't tell the difference, but hardly surprising.
BTW, teacher pensions are far smaller as a percent of salary (and start far later) than cops or ffs.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
You assume too much you mental furballs. Who ever said I'm a cop or a firefighter ?? .... actually I'm just another blogger to jack your [bleep] up, and waste your time and it succeeded !!!! hahahaha ! You ate it hook, line and sinker
Bye Suckers
Joined: Apr 2008
Current Posts: 19
Richard Rider, Chair San Diego Tax Fighters
One thing we established for certain -- you are a liar. I've pointed that out numerous times already. Thanks for verification.
Who said you were a cop? YOU DID. On top of these comments, you sent me several venomous personal messages declaring yourself a cop.
I suspect you ARE a cop, and are now getting nervous that your superiors (who would know who you are, or could easily find out since you doubtless tell your co-workers) would see your posts and realize that I am right -- you have no business in a police uniform, carrying a firearm under color of law.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Gee Mental Furball,
Do you believe everything you see, hear and read? That's why they call this a "blog", it is obvious that my tactics of irritating you worked, or you wouldn't have wasted the time to respond. I have posted on other blogs, but never had the joy of getting such a response as you gave. It's no wonder people like Adolph Hitler come to power, because the populace is full of sheep like you, "duh duh duh dud dud da follow de leeder ....... ", and your stupid co-hort, Livermore Mike, actually sent his physical address to me challenging me to a fight -- now who's the adult here?, lucky for him I just often play devil's advocate to get some debate going, and get responses from people, and I deleted his email he sent me via this blogging channel. I really don't care where he lives nor do I have any desire to meet him or YOU in person.
I'll tell you and all your other crackpot followers ONE MORE TIME, no I am not a cop or a firefighter. You are just mad because you have been clowned .....
Have fun storming the castle.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 902
gee Harry Brock, how come your last name doesn't start with a C, instead of Br? idiot
MAYBE SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT CALIFORNIA TO DIE!
you bring up the private sector. gee guess what Harry Crock - - the private sector doesn't have pensions and people are getting laid off left and right by the MILLIONS. what do the state governments do? NOTHING. just keep everyone, keep spending the money like its free.
PHAH Q!
we all work hard, we all feel we deserve something but don't get pensions = WE ONLY PAY FOR YOUR LAZY [bleep] TO HAVE THEM. and we do against our will. it is not a choice!
and too bad many of us have seen exactly how lazy you govt pukes are. you don't work 60 hour weeks like us in the private sector. you don't even have to worry about anything vs. private sector which is full of STRESS STRESS STRESS. you have no competition. nothing driving you.
so quit with the boo hoo hoo speach you puke. you are lazy, yet, get a pension. your performance has never been measured (lucky for you). you sandbags have killed the once great state of California. i guess you can sleep well knowing that, but none of us could sleep if we'd raped the taxpayers like people like you.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 902
that the minorities are the majority in California now. Spanish is the official language.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Que ?????
Joined: May 2008
Current Posts: 328
Public employee pensions don't need to be reigned in -- they need to be reneged on. Time for all California cities to declare a mass bankruptcy and shrug off all these parasitic former public employees. If they didn't put away a fraction of their salary over the years toward retirement, then let them move in with their kids.
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 208
I am 67 years old and ashamed that a member of the senior generation like Rider has such a low IQ. I am even more amazed that he spends so much time this topic alone. Perhaps he should concentrate a little more at the top. What does this fool think about our politicans who do not risk their lives one little bit, don't even listen to those who elected them, take brides, fool around while spouting how they have good moral convictions, have the best retirement in the nation, make a fortune, etc etc. I,ll bet he voted for Bush twice which would explain his low IQ, you betchya. Anyway to those fire fighters and cops who despite Rider's IQ would not hesitate to risk thier live for him I just want to say THANK YOU.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 273
dedicated members of the public safety sector and encourage all those folks that have witnessed the merciless attack on their compensation and retirement benefits to not let it "get to you" too much. The reasonably minded members of the community understand the scope and challenge of your mission and what it's worth to them!!
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 1191
If the state goes BK under the weight of programs it can not afford then what? I agree that our corrupt politicians need a new line of work but if you look at who has the real power in this state it is the public employee unions.
You want to raise taxes, you want more illegal immigrants who will vote with you and incease payroll. You are against test scores because that is unfair to teachers. You are against merit based pay because that cant be measured.
You guys need to clean up your act. The good news is we are now to the point where we cant afford any more waste. The buck has finally stopped. The system is unsustainable.
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 77
Tom925, Your post begs the question.....what is the "real power" that you claim that public employee unions have? As long as voters continue to tolerate politicians who get into bed with special interest groups of any kind, the problem will persist. To attack the unions for playing the game according to the accepted rules and then blame them for the way your elected officials vote is ludicrous. BTW....the buck has not stopped at all, it's just slowed down a bit. The waste continues and always will. Public employees will make concessions like furlough days, reduced pay and benefits etc and another special interest group will slide right in behind them with their hand out for the saved dollars. Whatever satisfaction voters may get from thinking that they solved the problem will be short-lived as they find themselves in the same situation in the future. Blame unions and employees if you wish but I think that the real problem can be found elsewhere.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 1191
I appreciate your question. I am not a political stooge. I see big problems with both parties. This is exactly what I meant about the real power.
When our current Gov put ballot measures to the people you could not listen to the radio or TV without hearing from the unions (mostly the teachers union). The unions crushed his attempt to change california.
Listen to the radio and hear the ongoing infomercial from rebuildcalifornia.org. They hired a local comic (Greg Prubst) to do these spots.
Every election cycle we see the largest spenders are the unions (mostly public employees)
I dont just blame unions. I blame mostly the politicians but the unions play a part in this as well. They fund these guys, they run ads, they want no change to illegal immigration enforcement.
Unions now hold tremendous political power with our new president. If you doubt that I can prove it with a simple link.
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 77
I heard the ads, it didn't change my vote. I'm bombarded by ads by Ford everyday but I don't drive one. The unions didn't crush Arnold's proposed tax increases, the voters did. Would you suggest that interested parties including unions be banned from participation in the political process? I don't believe that the teachers unions have much in common with say law enforcement unions on most issues including immigration enforcement so to lump all unions together for sake of an argument seems irresponsible. The buck (if one really exists) should stop at one place...the politicians who talk out of both sides of their faces with few if any consequences.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 1191
For 11 years there were arguements about a bullet train in our state. Today on the news it was announced that some idiot put language in the funding bill that will dealy this even more. So there are two stories here. A bad politician but also the envirementalist (special interest group) that has delayed this and run up the costs.
I am all for teachers, firefighters, cops being paid a fair wage. I think we should look at increasing front end pay and get out of funding their pensions.
I am not against the unions have a voice in politics but today they have more political power than most people know.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Yeah and the corporations held enormous power with the former President, and look what that did. I don't think Pres. Obama is as friendly to the unions as you "Union Bashers" all think, I think he has and/or will become, as time goes on, more of a centrist than people want to believe. Look at "W", he campaigned as a fiscal conservative, well right of center candidate, and he became a "huge spender" of taxpayer dollars, although he remained to the right, he moved closer to being a centrist. In the special election the elected officials, and Schwarzenger was one of those elected officials who pawned the job of the budget onto the public, it wasn't the unions that defeated any initiatives it was the politicians who defeated it by not doing what they are supposed to do, debate, vote and present a viable budget to the governor for his signature. It's really easy to blame the unions, even the union members often are disgruntled, but that is a fact of life, when you have a group of people with differing ideas, not everyone is going to agree and some feelings will get bashed about, but the unions are playing by the rules not outside of them.
Hey the people passed Prop. 13 over 30 years ago, now accept it, and live with it. The legislators responded foolishly by passing more mandates to require some programs to continue knowing full well there would be no money to pay for those programs later (like now), but we're stuck with it. Maybe some loopholes that benefit large property owners (like very large apartment complexes) need to be overturned, I don't know.
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 902
Bush wasn't impeached but CLINTON was, you know, your phuhkin HERO!
gee big IQ to vote for a lying creole. bet you voted Obama too you dumbazz. yeah CHANGE. he CHANGED his address and thats it. stupid is as stupid does
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
Good for you, have a nice day !!
Joined: Feb 2009
Current Posts: 902
they don't deserve it. nobody does. it is the same as a pyramid scheme. take from the taxpayers give to the people that don't deserve it
and to fools saying why don't you be a cop or schoolteacher, etc etc its because nobody told us about the millions of dollars you aholes are raking in. and since we don't agree with the pensions why would we want to be a party to the rape of taxpayers? our conscience wouldn't allow it
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 24
What a lame excuse ................. Oh but you will work (if you do) for a company that poisons the air, water and soil and rips off the public. oh ok
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 208
A whole lot of you have to get real! You CANNOT count overtime as pay period. This is something that the city, county or state MAKES that is FORCES a person to work and why GEE because they have work to do and NO ONE there to do it. Are you fools saying the employee should work overtime (that is time away from the family) for NOTHING. I,ll bet NOT one of you would do such a thing. How would you like to work 8, 10, 12 hours in a day and then have to work another 8, 10, 12 sleep 4 hours and get up and do it again. IT IS NO FUN AND NOT HEALTHY.
Joined: Sep 2009
Current Posts: 3
In these devestating economic times, I can see good points made on both sides of the coin here. but at same time, please humor me and look at a flip side perspective. The public employees salaries cited here are the proverbial "fat cats" of the public sector.....Yes, the CEO's in these public district offices should not be making $876K per year with huge pensions, at the taxpayers expense. But we have the "fat cats" in the private sector as well, grossly overpaid and many making millions off of pollution causing industry such as big oil and chemical companies. (scientifically proven to be linked to our Nation's poor Health trend such as chronic lung disease/asthma in kids up 160%, cancers up 30% respiratory illnesses and many other disease) We currently have a toxic wasteland floating in the Pacific nearly twice the size of Texas. We have become so overly computerized, commercialized, industrialized it is hindering the nation more than helping. (i.e. kids zoning out on video games, cell phones doing everything but burping and [bleep]ing for us). Personally find this more alarming than our high taxes (I hate them too!) or any other monetary grunts overall. Maybe the recesssion will make each of us step back and learn a little conservation. The fact is, apart from those fat cats being overpaid (in both public and private sectors) the public employees are grossly UNDERPAID for what they do for society. Environmentalist, nurses, teachers, firefighters, police officers are working for YOU, the people. Have we really evolved to be so inhumance as to put pollution for profit over our own families and well being? The answer seems an appalling yes, hence why US ranked dead last in healthcare out of any industrialized nation, and near last in education. Meanwhile, we put billions into uncessary terrorism (oops war) efforts to "help" other nations with their problems. Yes, those fat cats are overpaid. But when we start speaking in terms of all "Bay area Public employees" and start citing rather moderate salaries like $100,000 for many with PHd level education working to keep our Bay waters free of cancer causing toxins...so you and I can have clean water to drink, I have a problem with this logic. I personally earned an MBA and worked in the private sector for 20+ years (high tech Marketing). 10 years ago was making about what my husband makes now in the PUBLIC sector especially after salary cuts with furlogh fridays. I've taken six years off my high paying high tech job (and will never go back) to do something more important than help market yet another technology we don't really need to survive....take care of my flesh and blood child. And my family payes $8500 per year for property taxes, and at least as high taxes out of our family income as any of you into state, federal. We all pay taxes, inlcuding the underpaid public employees trying to help you live in a less polluted, educated world. And no, Tiger Woods does not do more for society than someone teaching our next generation of do-gooders to propel our nation further, or those working at the biggest issue facing humanity....environmental pollution and saving the planet. I love golf, play myself. But seriously, nobody should be paid multi-millions for entertainment. Just another reason for US to have increasing coach potato and obesity epidemic.
Joined: Mar 2007
Current Posts: 446
Brilliant post!