No sales revenue for the city from walmart. Theres a book called Better not Bigger that talks about smart growth by Eben Fodor. If you can't find a copy I'd give you mine.
All is not doomed just because walmart doesn't come to oakley. There are other stores that would fit in and to go places that would be welcomed. Hopefully the city council is smart enough to have someone doing this job and trying to lure in other business's
Don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that the Home Depot project is going to die too now that the roadway improvements to Main St will not be done. In order to attract any retail store you need to have a place to put it and since WalMart will not be purchasing the land where the center was to go, who is going to step up to buy the land and develop it?
Oh and lets not forget that we will soon have a whole bunch of low income housing in town, that will look real attractive to any of the high tone business that people keep sugesting that the city go after.
Funny about that low income . Did you know the people behind it (off oakley rd) are really upset over it. Seems even they didn't know about it until it was too late. The city told them that there was nothing they could do about it. How would you like to look out your back door and stare at it day in and out? And know that some of the people living there aren't the type of people you'd want blocks away. The city only has to notify those within a 400ft (or thereabouts) range. Walmart would not of been the savior you think it would of been. It would of only brought its own problems within the city that we don't need.
Maybe the city will re-think selling in parcels rather than the huge amount they expected walmart to buy and then fiance until other stores came in. I can't say I totally blame walmart for pulling out considering the city expected them to buy the whole acreage. I am pleased that they did pull out. If they don't have someone looking at other options then they should. Hopefully now Safeway will come in and we know fresh an easy is coming. If they hire someone to walk the neighboorhoods and then uphold the neighboorhood standards we can improve the area.
The city does not own the land. It is still ownd by the Cline family I beleive since every piece of paper I have seen refers to it as the Cline property. When are people going to realize that grocery stores do not generate the tax revenue that a general merchandise store would have?
Again where is the city supposed to get the money to hire anyone to do all of these neighborhood standard walks. 1 code enforcement officer Brentwood has at least 4, there just is not this glut of cash that some people seem to think the city has.
The city has plenty of money at this point without walmart. They have a large slush fund for lean times. Their budget and revenue numbers are on the oakley website. (I don't remember exactly where but they are there) 25 thous dollar raises could of paid for 2 part time people or 1 full time. The EIR report was most likely paid for by the city of oakley and I'm sure that will hurt as they are expensive, especially in lieu of walmart pulling out.
As for the grocery store + tax keep in mind walmart was going to be just that + whatever. I say good riddance to them. They have a history of building then walking away and leaving. Maybe in order to help their bottom line walmart will have to go back to no benifits so they can remain top dog, Whatever walmart does I don't care unless they come into my city.
If the city of lafayette can contract out their police force theres no reason we can't. Also the city can appoint someone within the city to entice a store/builder.
We've been a city for a while without some of the services you think are inperative and personally I have not minded going elsewhere to shop. The city's done fine with the operating budget they have without walmart.
You really have no concept of how city goverment runs do you? First of all in order to attract any business you have to have a place to put it, and where would that be? There are no shopping centers that the city owns, or land to build on. Yes the city is eventually supposed to get the DuPont property, but there is quite a bit of clean up to be done there.
Your right the city has done fine since incorporating in July 99 but how many new homes have been built since then and how many cops firefighters have been added. As the population increases the city budget has to increase also, and I can tell you for fact that the budget and staffing has not kept up with the population. Most cities with a population of 38,000 have more than 1 fire station, even Discovery Bay has more than 1 station. And you think that 1 is enough? Would it suprise you to know that most structure fires in Oakley are a total loss. I personally think that the response time is poor at best. Don't get me started on phone call from the police instead of a real response.
So my question still stands how can the sales tax revenue be replaced, we may not need it right this second but rest assured the city will need it.
P5- they can build the same place walmart would of. If a investment firm owns it then they can buy it the same as walmart would of.
Did the city own the property les schwab is on? Starbucks?
I never said 1 fire station was enough but thats a whole other argument thats been going on since I've lived out here.
These are tuff times and your just going to have to deal with it if the city does or doesn't get what you think they need. Can You say V-a-l-l-e-j-o.
I can tell you for fact that the budget and staffing has not kept up with the population. Budget and staffing? Come on. Police and firefighters Yea we could use them however when we flagrently give out 25000/yr pay raises, don't try and talk to me about budget. What about our teachers and school districts?
When did the school district become part of the city, the city has no control over the school district, and since the city is barley providing basic public safety I think that, that should be priority 1.
Can you remember back when Antioch had no Lowes, and very little retail, and they were closeing parks had a big hiring freeze for the city. The population continued to grow they got some major retail, but took a while to start hiring again, now the police department is playing catch up.
Your big concern was traffic so if some other major retailer goes into that spot why would you support it if it will bring the same traffic problems? Do you think that the city went out and contacted Les Schawab or Starbucks to get them to come to Oakley? Starbucks had been looking at the vacant lot at Teakwood and Main for some time, and still are as far as I know. The truth of the matter is that you think that the there is some magic list of retailers that the city can go and get to come to town, having worked for a city in a very similar situation I can tell you that there isn't, nor is there money in most city budgets to send someone to a corporate headquarters to pitch the city for a store. All retail centers have a leasing agency that does that type of work. Just so you can understand and we are clear the stores usually come to the city not the other way around.
And no I will not be the only one dealing with it if the city doesn't get what they need, your insurance rates will rise also, the response time to any emergency at your home or neighborhood will rise. I am not looking out for me when I say that the city needs to have better public safety I am looking out for everyone. I know what response times should be I do have nearly 15 years experience in dealing with it.
Just so that you know the $25,000 raise that you seem so angry about brought him up to about the average for a city manager of a city of 30,000 population.
I'm not angry about the raise I just wonder how a city that can't afford its own patrol units can afford it.
I think I also told you I have no problem with no retail coming in. I moved to oakley because I liked the atmosphere it then had for raising kids. Schools? We went to oakley elem before vintage was built.
Living in a small town will always make your emergency response time longer. Its one of the prices you pay when you move away from the cities.
San Francisco may have a faster response time but do you want to live there? I don't. If your main concern is response time then there is always antioch, pittsburg, concord etc. That wasn't my main concern then and it isn't now. I know its a price I pay.
I also know its highway patrol who responds in the event of a accident and that you have to drive to martinez to pick up the report. I've been there, done it and its not that big of a deal. Its all part of the price.
If you think the CHP responds to collisions in the city you are dead wrong. I don't care how big the city is or where it is located it should have no bearing on response times in an incorporated city. When I was working in a small town pop. 22,000 our response time to any call was under 3 minutes fires was even better there's was less than 2 to anywhere in town. We never called someone to take a report we made contact, I am almost positive that taking a burglary report over the phone in unheard of and unacceptable in Lafayette, Danville or any of the other contract cities, so why is it done here?
When Oakley became a city in 1999 they said they wanted "local control" to me that means we have our own police department that answers to the city, we don't, we should have the police reports taken in the city locally available, we don't. It may not be a big deal for you to drive to down town Martinez to get a copy of a police report, but there are quite a few people that it is an inconvience for. I am glad that you feel that you are safe and a slow response time is the price you pay for living in a small town, but guess what you now live in a med sized city not a small town, and I hope that no one you know or care for becomes a victim and has to pay that price, trust me it is a steep price, and I don't think anyone should have to pay it. Oakley is a city not a small town it is time we demand the benefits we should have gotten when Oakley became a city.
If you get into a accident on main street (hwy 4) in front of raleys its chp who responds. Response time is based on what else is happening. My daughter waited almost 2 hrs for a chp officer to come on a hit and run accident. She wasn't the priority however for chp as she wasn't hurt. We also learned that a hit and run isn't a felony unless someone is injured.
I also have a scanner and know that in a serious situation the police are there fast. Would it be any quicker if they were our cops? I'm not sure I buy that. We have cops in oakley. If you think we need more go to a city council meeting and make the suggestion.
They were going to add 2 motorcycle cops but I think I heard that was put on hold.(I don't remember where I heard that so it may or may not be true)
This has nothing to do with whether or not I feel safe in oakley anymore. Oakley has changed. If I were out looking to buy now I wouldn't buy here again. Having more cops isn't going to fix the rental problems. The demographics of Oakley have changed dramatically since I moved here. It would no longer be my choice if I was making that choice. When I first moved here I left my front door unlocked all the time.
Having more cops isn't going to fix oakleys problems. Getting rid of the riff raff might. But the problems just keep moving out from the main citys. Antioch has over 120 policemen/women on their force but guess what? They still have problems. (some major)
Uncontrolled Growth. Population over 100,000. Parents who don't know where their kids are or are unable to control them.
Does not respond to accidents in the city of Oakley, since July of 1999 I don't care if it is on Main st or not, Oakley PD investigated the fatal collision at Main and Live Oak, Oakley PD investigated the collision last year at Main and Rose, so I don't know where you get your info about CHP but it is dead wrong.
Ok don't you think you would get better more responsive service if your police department got paid by the city instead of the county. I know that when I worked and my pay check said city of I had an attachment to the city, I knew it was my career not an assingment that if I got tired of I could transfer to somewhere else. If I had the city manager of council members pissed at me it was my livelyhood, and I couldn't just move to another assingment.
Brentwood has had their own police department since they incorporated as a city in 1948. There was a sufficent tax base to support the few officers that they had until the major growth, took place. They also had quite a bit of agriculture based business in town. Brentwood was an incorporated city of under 20,000 for most of it's existence. Also in those days the majority of property taxes went to the city instead of the school district, there was only one high school out here, and I am sure there were no more than 1 or 2 elementry / middle schools then. It is a lot easier to divide up the money when you have an all vouluteer fire department no park and rec department just a few city offices and a couple of police officers. When I moved out here Brentwood had more volunteer reserve officers than regular officers. It isn't too hard to figure out that if your saleries are low it is easy to have a police department. I first looked at Brentwood in 1991 and then it would have been a $2500 a month pay cut if I had started at top step, and I was at mid step at the time.
I had a accident on main and big break and it was chp who responded. It may have been before 1999. If thats when chp stopped responding to accidents out here.
As for if a officer would care more if it was their city, I can't really answer that as I'm not a officer. I would like to hope any officer working anywhere would always do their best.
P5- See if you can explain this for me. The police dept in brentwood was established in 1948. We know there wasn't much building or tax base so who paid for it? I don't think tax base is the only monies for the police dept because if that were true the city of brentwood could not of established their police dept so long ago.
I'm sure the cost of officers then was way different then now, but they had to have some way to pay them. The building in brentwood didn't start until after I moved out here which was 91. So they didn't have a tax base until more recently right?
Brentwood has always had a more established business community than Oakley -- and had a 50-year head start in the cityhood game. When I arrived in East County in 1988, Brentwood's population was a whopping 5,600. But even then they had a vision for the future. All those fancy retail shops and restaurants you have now were in the planning stages at least since the early 1980s. People laughed at the city planners back then. Who would ever want to build a Home Depot in the middle of podunk nowhere Brentwood?
They aren't laughing anymore.
Oakley might one day attract such retail might, but it won't happen overnight. Certainly not in the current economy, and not before all the retail opportunities in more desirable Brentwood and Antioch are snapped up. We are very late to the party and can't be as choosy. P5 makes very valid points about the city's tax base. I wasn't a big Wal-Mart fan either, but the tax money has to come from somewhere, and it's not going to be from grocery stores or more houses.
Posted on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 09:01 — by suema
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 92
Hey, congratulations Oakley! You fought and fought and got what you wanted.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 249
No sales tax revenue for the city, no increase in manpower for the pd. Yep a city of 38,000, with 27 cops total.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
No sales revenue for the city from walmart. Theres a book called Better not Bigger that talks about smart growth by Eben Fodor. If you can't find a copy I'd give you mine. All is not doomed just because walmart doesn't come to oakley. There are other stores that would fit in and to go places that would be welcomed. Hopefully the city council is smart enough to have someone doing this job and trying to lure in other business's
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 249
Don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that the Home Depot project is going to die too now that the roadway improvements to Main St will not be done. In order to attract any retail store you need to have a place to put it and since WalMart will not be purchasing the land where the center was to go, who is going to step up to buy the land and develop it? Oh and lets not forget that we will soon have a whole bunch of low income housing in town, that will look real attractive to any of the high tone business that people keep sugesting that the city go after.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
Funny about that low income . Did you know the people behind it (off oakley rd) are really upset over it. Seems even they didn't know about it until it was too late. The city told them that there was nothing they could do about it. How would you like to look out your back door and stare at it day in and out? And know that some of the people living there aren't the type of people you'd want blocks away. The city only has to notify those within a 400ft (or thereabouts) range. Walmart would not of been the savior you think it would of been. It would of only brought its own problems within the city that we don't need. Maybe the city will re-think selling in parcels rather than the huge amount they expected walmart to buy and then fiance until other stores came in. I can't say I totally blame walmart for pulling out considering the city expected them to buy the whole acreage. I am pleased that they did pull out. If they don't have someone looking at other options then they should. Hopefully now Safeway will come in and we know fresh an easy is coming. If they hire someone to walk the neighboorhoods and then uphold the neighboorhood standards we can improve the area.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 249
The city does not own the land. It is still ownd by the Cline family I beleive since every piece of paper I have seen refers to it as the Cline property. When are people going to realize that grocery stores do not generate the tax revenue that a general merchandise store would have? Again where is the city supposed to get the money to hire anyone to do all of these neighborhood standard walks. 1 code enforcement officer Brentwood has at least 4, there just is not this glut of cash that some people seem to think the city has.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
I also heard the property had been bought by a investment company in benicia? vallejo? Let them sit on it now.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
P5-
The city has plenty of money at this point without walmart. They have a large slush fund for lean times. Their budget and revenue numbers are on the oakley website. (I don't remember exactly where but they are there) 25 thous dollar raises could of paid for 2 part time people or 1 full time. The EIR report was most likely paid for by the city of oakley and I'm sure that will hurt as they are expensive, especially in lieu of walmart pulling out. As for the grocery store + tax keep in mind walmart was going to be just that + whatever. I say good riddance to them. They have a history of building then walking away and leaving. Maybe in order to help their bottom line walmart will have to go back to no benifits so they can remain top dog, Whatever walmart does I don't care unless they come into my city. If the city of lafayette can contract out their police force theres no reason we can't. Also the city can appoint someone within the city to entice a store/builder. We've been a city for a while without some of the services you think are inperative and personally I have not minded going elsewhere to shop. The city's done fine with the operating budget they have without walmart.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 249
You really have no concept of how city goverment runs do you? First of all in order to attract any business you have to have a place to put it, and where would that be? There are no shopping centers that the city owns, or land to build on. Yes the city is eventually supposed to get the DuPont property, but there is quite a bit of clean up to be done there. Your right the city has done fine since incorporating in July 99 but how many new homes have been built since then and how many cops firefighters have been added. As the population increases the city budget has to increase also, and I can tell you for fact that the budget and staffing has not kept up with the population. Most cities with a population of 38,000 have more than 1 fire station, even Discovery Bay has more than 1 station. And you think that 1 is enough? Would it suprise you to know that most structure fires in Oakley are a total loss. I personally think that the response time is poor at best. Don't get me started on phone call from the police instead of a real response. So my question still stands how can the sales tax revenue be replaced, we may not need it right this second but rest assured the city will need it.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
P5- they can build the same place walmart would of. If a investment firm owns it then they can buy it the same as walmart would of. Did the city own the property les schwab is on? Starbucks? I never said 1 fire station was enough but thats a whole other argument thats been going on since I've lived out here. These are tuff times and your just going to have to deal with it if the city does or doesn't get what you think they need. Can You say V-a-l-l-e-j-o. I can tell you for fact that the budget and staffing has not kept up with the population. Budget and staffing? Come on. Police and firefighters Yea we could use them however when we flagrently give out 25000/yr pay raises, don't try and talk to me about budget. What about our teachers and school districts?
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 249
When did the school district become part of the city, the city has no control over the school district, and since the city is barley providing basic public safety I think that, that should be priority 1. Can you remember back when Antioch had no Lowes, and very little retail, and they were closeing parks had a big hiring freeze for the city. The population continued to grow they got some major retail, but took a while to start hiring again, now the police department is playing catch up.
Your big concern was traffic so if some other major retailer goes into that spot why would you support it if it will bring the same traffic problems? Do you think that the city went out and contacted Les Schawab or Starbucks to get them to come to Oakley? Starbucks had been looking at the vacant lot at Teakwood and Main for some time, and still are as far as I know. The truth of the matter is that you think that the there is some magic list of retailers that the city can go and get to come to town, having worked for a city in a very similar situation I can tell you that there isn't, nor is there money in most city budgets to send someone to a corporate headquarters to pitch the city for a store. All retail centers have a leasing agency that does that type of work. Just so you can understand and we are clear the stores usually come to the city not the other way around.
And no I will not be the only one dealing with it if the city doesn't get what they need, your insurance rates will rise also, the response time to any emergency at your home or neighborhood will rise. I am not looking out for me when I say that the city needs to have better public safety I am looking out for everyone. I know what response times should be I do have nearly 15 years experience in dealing with it.
Just so that you know the $25,000 raise that you seem so angry about brought him up to about the average for a city manager of a city of 30,000 population.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
I'm not angry about the raise I just wonder how a city that can't afford its own patrol units can afford it. I think I also told you I have no problem with no retail coming in. I moved to oakley because I liked the atmosphere it then had for raising kids. Schools? We went to oakley elem before vintage was built. Living in a small town will always make your emergency response time longer. Its one of the prices you pay when you move away from the cities. San Francisco may have a faster response time but do you want to live there? I don't. If your main concern is response time then there is always antioch, pittsburg, concord etc. That wasn't my main concern then and it isn't now. I know its a price I pay. I also know its highway patrol who responds in the event of a accident and that you have to drive to martinez to pick up the report. I've been there, done it and its not that big of a deal. Its all part of the price.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 249
If you think the CHP responds to collisions in the city you are dead wrong. I don't care how big the city is or where it is located it should have no bearing on response times in an incorporated city. When I was working in a small town pop. 22,000 our response time to any call was under 3 minutes fires was even better there's was less than 2 to anywhere in town. We never called someone to take a report we made contact, I am almost positive that taking a burglary report over the phone in unheard of and unacceptable in Lafayette, Danville or any of the other contract cities, so why is it done here? When Oakley became a city in 1999 they said they wanted "local control" to me that means we have our own police department that answers to the city, we don't, we should have the police reports taken in the city locally available, we don't. It may not be a big deal for you to drive to down town Martinez to get a copy of a police report, but there are quite a few people that it is an inconvience for. I am glad that you feel that you are safe and a slow response time is the price you pay for living in a small town, but guess what you now live in a med sized city not a small town, and I hope that no one you know or care for becomes a victim and has to pay that price, trust me it is a steep price, and I don't think anyone should have to pay it. Oakley is a city not a small town it is time we demand the benefits we should have gotten when Oakley became a city.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
If you get into a accident on main street (hwy 4) in front of raleys its chp who responds. Response time is based on what else is happening. My daughter waited almost 2 hrs for a chp officer to come on a hit and run accident. She wasn't the priority however for chp as she wasn't hurt. We also learned that a hit and run isn't a felony unless someone is injured. I also have a scanner and know that in a serious situation the police are there fast. Would it be any quicker if they were our cops? I'm not sure I buy that. We have cops in oakley. If you think we need more go to a city council meeting and make the suggestion. They were going to add 2 motorcycle cops but I think I heard that was put on hold.(I don't remember where I heard that so it may or may not be true) This has nothing to do with whether or not I feel safe in oakley anymore. Oakley has changed. If I were out looking to buy now I wouldn't buy here again. Having more cops isn't going to fix the rental problems. The demographics of Oakley have changed dramatically since I moved here. It would no longer be my choice if I was making that choice. When I first moved here I left my front door unlocked all the time. Having more cops isn't going to fix oakleys problems. Getting rid of the riff raff might. But the problems just keep moving out from the main citys. Antioch has over 120 policemen/women on their force but guess what? They still have problems. (some major) Uncontrolled Growth. Population over 100,000. Parents who don't know where their kids are or are unable to control them.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 249
Does not respond to accidents in the city of Oakley, since July of 1999 I don't care if it is on Main st or not, Oakley PD investigated the fatal collision at Main and Live Oak, Oakley PD investigated the collision last year at Main and Rose, so I don't know where you get your info about CHP but it is dead wrong. Ok don't you think you would get better more responsive service if your police department got paid by the city instead of the county. I know that when I worked and my pay check said city of I had an attachment to the city, I knew it was my career not an assingment that if I got tired of I could transfer to somewhere else. If I had the city manager of council members pissed at me it was my livelyhood, and I couldn't just move to another assingment.
Brentwood has had their own police department since they incorporated as a city in 1948. There was a sufficent tax base to support the few officers that they had until the major growth, took place. They also had quite a bit of agriculture based business in town. Brentwood was an incorporated city of under 20,000 for most of it's existence. Also in those days the majority of property taxes went to the city instead of the school district, there was only one high school out here, and I am sure there were no more than 1 or 2 elementry / middle schools then. It is a lot easier to divide up the money when you have an all vouluteer fire department no park and rec department just a few city offices and a couple of police officers. When I moved out here Brentwood had more volunteer reserve officers than regular officers. It isn't too hard to figure out that if your saleries are low it is easy to have a police department. I first looked at Brentwood in 1991 and then it would have been a $2500 a month pay cut if I had started at top step, and I was at mid step at the time.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
I had a accident on main and big break and it was chp who responded. It may have been before 1999. If thats when chp stopped responding to accidents out here. As for if a officer would care more if it was their city, I can't really answer that as I'm not a officer. I would like to hope any officer working anywhere would always do their best.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 27
CHP was responsible for providing traffic enforcement throughout the town of Oakley prior to it's incorporation
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
P5- See if you can explain this for me. The police dept in brentwood was established in 1948. We know there wasn't much building or tax base so who paid for it? I don't think tax base is the only monies for the police dept because if that were true the city of brentwood could not of established their police dept so long ago. I'm sure the cost of officers then was way different then now, but they had to have some way to pay them. The building in brentwood didn't start until after I moved out here which was 91. So they didn't have a tax base until more recently right?
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2
Brentwood has always had a more established business community than Oakley -- and had a 50-year head start in the cityhood game. When I arrived in East County in 1988, Brentwood's population was a whopping 5,600. But even then they had a vision for the future. All those fancy retail shops and restaurants you have now were in the planning stages at least since the early 1980s. People laughed at the city planners back then. Who would ever want to build a Home Depot in the middle of podunk nowhere Brentwood?
They aren't laughing anymore.
Oakley might one day attract such retail might, but it won't happen overnight. Certainly not in the current economy, and not before all the retail opportunities in more desirable Brentwood and Antioch are snapped up. We are very late to the party and can't be as choosy. P5 makes very valid points about the city's tax base. I wasn't a big Wal-Mart fan either, but the tax money has to come from somewhere, and it's not going to be from grocery stores or more houses.