ObamaCare. Or Not.


RealAmerica
RealAmerica's picture

Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

It was difficult to figure out if I should put this in the Illegal Alien thread or start anew. A recent AOL poll of 100K+ Americans showed that 3/4 of them strongly disapproved of Obama's health care program.

http://news.aol.com/article/obama-approval-ratings/578736

The following points were taken from a post in FreeRepublic.com, and is unverified. It purportedly is the interpretation of someone who is actually reading the text of the bill, and notes page and line numbers. So it should be easy to verify. I did check and found out the recent amendment to exclude illegal aliens from the coverage was defeated. So although it is advertised as a 'work in progress', expect the worst.

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same

PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! [bleep]. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House.

Following the mad recommendations of Peter Singer made in NYT's Sunday magazine, it pays to take a look at what is actually in the healthcare bill.

It's worse than you can possibly imagine. Somehow, it manages to be Singer on steroids. Who wrote this bill. It has Singer's footprints all over it.

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same

PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! [bleep]. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2297439/posts

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

Average: 5 (1 vote)

RealAmerica
RealAmerica's picture

Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

Cost Analysis

$239B deficit (yes, that's the 'B' word) in the first decade alone. It will be interesting to see how it compares to Obama's budget picture (which won't be released until after the legislation is voted on).

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10400/07-26-InfoOnTriCommProposal.pd...

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

brennymac
brennymac's picture

Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 85

Was there an AOL poll on who thought we should invade Iraq? It is not the job of Congress or the President to do what the majority of people express as their will at any given time. They do what they think is right, and based on the result they either get re-elected or not. That Rush, Hannity, Beck, and the rest of the conservative movement now advocate governing by the polls after making fun of Clinton for it all those years only shows how unprincipled they are. Of course, you can add to that the fact that they supported (by continuing to advertise) the corporate welfare of GM and now defend the right of fat people to be fat as an argument against Obamacare. It wasn't so long ago that they were trying to convince us that the real threat to America was fat welfare mothers in Cadillacs. 

RealAmerica
RealAmerica's picture

Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

DeFacto Amnesty

This article is about how the Hispanic Caucus is pressuring Pelosi to inclue illegal aliens in the proposed healthcare progrom.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.3861/pub_detail.asp

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

factcheck
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Joined: Aug 2009
Current Posts: 1

Page 22 -- MANDATES the government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure.

NO, ACTUALLY THE LANGUAGE SAYS THAT A STUDY SHOULD BE COMMISSIONED TO DETERMINE -- IN GENERAL -- HOW MANY EMPLOYERS ARE SELF-FUNDING THEIR BENEFITS AND MIGHT WANT TO SHIFT THEIR EMPLOYEES TO THE HEALTH EXCHANGE. NOTHING IN THERE ABOUT AUDITING THE BOOKS.

Page 30 Section 123 -- There will be a Government COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

NOT EXACTLY. AN INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE WILL RECOMMEND THE BENEFITS TO BE OFFERED, JUST LIKE WHAT YOUR EMPLOYER DOES NOW OR YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY -- THERE WILL BE OPPORTUNITIES TO BUY MORE EXPENSIVE OR COMPREHENSIVE PLANS BUT IT WILL BE YOUR CHOICE. FOR HEALTH PLANS THAT OFFER BENEFITS TO INDIVIDUALS WHO BUY THEIR INSURANCE THROUGH THE EXCHANGE, JUST LIKE WITH MEDICARE SUPPLEMENTS NOW, THERE WILL BE A COMMON PACKAGE OF BENEFITS OFFERED SO PEOPLE CAN COMPARE THEIR CHOICES.

Page 29 lines 4-16 -- Your Health Care is RATIONED.

WOW. NOT AT ALL! THIS LANGUAGE SAYS THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY MORE THAN A SET AMOUNT EACH YEAR FOR YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE. RIGHT NOW YOU ALL HAVE MAXIMUM AMOUNTS THAT YOUR INSURANCE WILL PAY ANNUALLY AND THEN YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN. THE NEW LAW WILL PROTECT YOU FROM HAVING TO PAY MORE THAN SET AMOUNTS. YOU SHOULD BE SO LUCKY!!

Page 42 -- The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your Health Care benefits for you. You have no choice.

AGAIN. NOT TRUE. THERE WILL BE CHOICES OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF PLANS YOU CAN BUY. RIGHT NOW IF YOU ARE EMPLOYED YOUR EMPLOYER CHOOSES FOR YOU. IN THE EXCHANGE, ALL KINDS OF PLANS WILL BE OFFERED FOR YOU TO CHOOSE. DID YOU THINK YOU WOULD PERSONALLY BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT SERVICES YOU WANT COVERED AND WHAT YOU DO NOT? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT EXCEPT THROUGH A RIDER?

Page 50 Section 152 -- Health Care will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise.

THERE IS NOTHING ON PAGE 50 OR SECTION 152 ABOUT ILLEGALS. ILLEGALS WILL NOT BE COVERED. THIS SECTION PROHIBITS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION OR GENDER OR ANYTHING ELSE.

Page 58 - Government will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Health Card will be issued.

NO. IT SAYS THAT THE HEALTH PLANS IN THE EXCHANGE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DETERMINE YOUR FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY BEFORE THEY ISSUE YOU AN INSURANCE PLAN. YOU ALREADY HAVE ID CARDS IF YOU HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE NOW OR EVEN MEDICARE. AND YOU CAN'T GET HEALTH INSURANCE NOW UNLESS YOU CAN PAY FOR IT. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. IT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT BUT THE PRIVATE INSURANCE PLANS THAT WILL REQUIRE THIS INFORMATION.

NOTE THIS IN POLITIFACT.COM

Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer. Barely True: Section 163 sets out goals for electronic health records. One of the goals is to include features that "enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation" between payment and billing. The legislative summary says the intent in the section is "to adopt standards for typical transactions" between insurance companies and health care providers. The legislation generically describes typical electronic banking transactions and does not outline any special access privileges.

Page 59 lines 21-24 -- Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electrical funds transfers.

NOT THE GOVERNMENT. AGAIN. YOU WILL HAVE TO APPROVE AN ELECTRONIC (NOT ELECTRICAL!) FUND TRANSFER IF YOU WANT TO PAY YOUR PREMIUMS THAT WAY. IT WILL BE THE PRIVATE INSURERS WHO PROCESS THIS, LIKE BLUE CROSS, AETNA, ETC. HOW DO YOU DO IT NOW?

Page 65 Section 164 -- A payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations (ACORN).

NO. THIS IS A PROGRAM WHERE THE GOVERNMENT WILL HELP EMPLOYERS WHO PROVIDE RETIREE MEDICAL BENEFITS TO PAY FOR THOSE BENEFITS IF THEY EXCEED A CERTAIN AMOUNT. IT'S A REINSURANCE PLAN THAT LARGE EMPLOYERS REALLY LIKE BECAUSE IT ALLOWS THEM TO CONTINUE GIVING THEIR EMPLOYEES RETIREE BENEFITS WHEN THEY RETIRE BUT NOT BREAK THE PRIVATE EMPLOYER'S BANK. UNIONS OPERATE HEALTH PLANS JUST LIKE PRIVATE EMPLOYERS SO OF COURSE THEY ARE INCLUDED. NOTHING SAID ABOUT ACORN HERE.

Page 72 Lines 8-14 -- Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.

IT IS TRUE THAT GOVERNMENT WILL HELP TO REGULATE THE EXCESSIVE ACTIONS OF PRIVATE INSURERS WHEN THEY DENY YOU COVERAGE BECAUSE OF A PREEXISTING CONDITION OR BECAUSE YOU WERE SICK. BUT DON'T WE ALL WANT THAT? EVEN THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY HAS AGREED TO THAT. THE EXCHANGE IS A WAY TO KEEP OUR PRIVATE INSURANCE SYSTEM WORKING, BUT NOT ALLOW THEM TO DENY YOU INSURANCE OR CHARGE YOU AN ARM OR A LEG. HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO BUY PRIVATE INSURANCE BY YOURSELF? IF YOU DID, YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU WERE EVER SICK, THEY CAN REFUSE TO SELL IT TO YOU OR CHARGE YOU A LOT.

SEE NY TIMES SUNDAY WITH THIS QUOTE:

Lawmakers of both parties agree on the need to rein in private insurance companies by banning underwriting practices that have prevented millions of Americans from obtaining affordable insurance. Insurers would, for example, have to accept all applicants and offer a minimum package of benefits, to be defined by the federal government. Nearly all Americans would be required to have insurance. Lawmakers also agree on the need to provide federal subsidies to help make insurance affordable for people with modest incomes. For poor people, Medicaid eligibility would be expanded.

Page 84 Section 203 -- Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private Health Care plans in the Exchange.

THERE WILL BE DIFFERENT PLANS FOR YOU TO CHOOSE FROM, BASIC TO COMPREHENSIVE DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU WANT TO PAY. RIGHT NOW, IF YOU ARE A MEDICARE BENEFICIARY AND CHOOSE TO BUY A SUPPLEMENT OR "GAP" PLAN, YOU CHOOSE PLANS FROM A MENU AND THE BENEFITS ARE MANDATED AND CONSISTENT.

Page 85 Line 7 -- Specifications for Benefit Levels for Plans = The government will ration your Health Care.

NO RATIONING HERE. YOU CHOOSE THE BENEFITS YOU WANT TO PAY FOR. ONCE YOU HAVE YOUR PLAN, YOUR DOCTOR DECIDES WHAT TREATMENTS YOU NEED. "BENEFITS" MEANS YOU GET HOSPITAL SERVICES AND LAB AND X-RAY. IT DOESN'T DETERMINE WHEN OR HOW OR WHY. JUST LIKE THE PLANS YOU HAVE NOW THROUGH YOUR EMPLOYER OR WHICH YOU BOUGHT YOURSELF. NO DIFFERENT.

Page 91 Lines 4-7 -- Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example -- translation for illegal aliens.

YES, LINGUISTIC SERVICES. NO, ILLEGAL ALIENS. NO SERVICES TO ILLEGAL ALIENS. THIS IS A BLATANT LIE. THERE IS NO MENTION OF ILLEGAL ALIENS HERE AT ALL.

Page 95 Lines 8-18 -- The government will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Government Health Care plan.

THE BILL SAYS "APPROPRIATE ENTITIES" WILL HELP WITH ENROLLMENT. DOESN'T MENTION ACORN OR AMERICORPS.

Page 85 Line 7 -- Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members -- Your Health Care WILL be rationed.

NO MENTION OF AARP. NO RATIONING. YOU GET TO CHOOSE THE LEVEL OF BENEFITS YOU CAN AFFORD. BUT SOMEONE HAS TO DESIGN THESE PLANS. GOVERNMENT WILL REQUIRE PRIVATE PLANS TO DESIGN THE BENEFITS SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THEM AND CHOOSE APPROPRIATELY.

Page 102 Lines 12-18 -- Medicaid Eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

NO. LINE 16 SAYS IF YOU DO NOT ELECT (CHOOSE) TO ENROLL IN A PRIVATE PLAN AND IF YOU ARE ELIGIBLE FOR MEDICAID BY REASON OF LOW INCOME, YOU CAN BE ENROLLED AUTOMATICALLY. BUT YOU MAKE THE CHOICE.

Page 124 lines 24-25 -- No company can sue the government for price fixing. No "judicial review" against government monopoly.

TRUE, NO JUDICIAL REVIEW OF GOVERNMENT RATE NEGOTIATIONS. BUT GOVERNMENT IS NOT A MONOPOLY HERE. THIS ONLY PERTAINS TO THE PUBLIC PLAN AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE THE PUBLIC PLAN, NOR DOES A DOCTOR HAVE TO CHOOSE TO CONTRACT WITH THE PUBLIC PLAN. IT IS VOLUNTARY.

Page 127 Lines 1-16 -- Doctors/AMA: The Government will tell you what you can make.

NO. THIS PERTAINS ONLY TO THE PAYMENTS NEGOTIATED FOR THE PUBLIC PLAN. IT'S THAT WAY NOW WITH MEDICARE. PHYSICIANS CAN CHOOSE TO CONTRACT WITH MEDICARE AND THEY CAN CHOOSE TO CONTRACT -- OR NOT -- WITH THIS PUBLIC PLAN. AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE TO ENROLL IN THE PUBLIC PLAN. NO ONE IS TELLING DOCTORS WHAT THEY CAN MAKE.

Page 145 Line 15-17 - An Employer MUST automatically enroll employees into public option plan. No Choice.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. THE EMPLOYER CAN PROVIDE ITS OWN COVERAGE OR IT CAN ALLOW EMPLOYEES TO CHOOSE FROM THE MANY, MANY PRIVATE INSURANCE OPTIONS. NO ONE HAS TO GO INTO THE PUBLIC PLAN. SOME SMALL EMPLOYERS (TO BE DEFINED) CAN ALLOW THEIR EMPLOYEES TO CHOOSE A PLAN FROM THE EXCHANGE. IN MOST OF THE BILLS, LARGE EMPLOYERS CANNOT MOVE THEIR EMPLOYEES INTO THE EXCHANGE, AT LEAST IN THE FIRST FEW YEARS.

Page 126 Lines 22-25 -- Employers MUST pay for Health Care for part time employees AND their families.

THIS PAGE NUMBER AND REFERENCE IS WRONG. NOT SURE WHAT PAGE THEY ARE REFERENCING. BUT YES, THERE ARE SOME REFERENCES TO COVERING PART TIME EMPLOYEES.

Page 149 Lines 16-24 -- ANY Employer with payroll 400k and above who does not provide public option pays 8 percent tax on all payroll.

THERE IS AN EMPLOYER MANDATE FOR SMALL EMPLOYERS THAT HAVE MORE THAN 400K IN PAYROLL IN THE HOUSE BILL. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PUBLIC PLAN. THE PUBLIC PLAN IS OPTIONAL.

Page 150 Lines 9-13 -- Business with payroll between $251k and $400k who does not provide public option pays 2-6 percent tax on all payroll.

NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVIDE THE PUBLIC OPTION. WHERE IS THIS COMING FROM?

Page 167 Lines 18-23 -- Any individual who does not have acceptable Health Care according to the government will be taxed 2.5 percent of income.

THIS IS TRUE. THERE IS AN EMPLOYER MANDATE AND AN INDIVIDUAL MANDATE IN THIS BILL. EVERYONE MUST HAVE INSURANCE AND THERE ARE PENALTIES IF THEY DO NOT GET IT. BUT THERE ARE ALSO SUBSIDIES TO HELP THEM PAY FOR IT. IT'S LIKE AUTO INSURANCE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT AND YOU PAY FINES IF YOU DON'T GET IT.

Page 170 Lines 1-3 -- Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes. (American citizens will pay).

ILLEGAL ALIENS WILL NOT BE COVERED. THEREFORE THEY WILL NOT BE PENALIZED. THEY WILL CONTINUE TO GET THEIR CARE IN EMERGENCY ROOMS LIKE THEY DO NOW, WITH THOSE COSTS BEING SHIFTED TO THE REST OF US.

Page 195 -- Officers and employees of Health Care Administration (government) will have access to ALL American's finance/personal records.

NOT ALL RECORDS. AND ONLY FOR THAT INFORMATION FOR THE PURPOSE OF DETERMINING IF THEY ARE ELIGIBLE FOR GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES. DO YOU WANT GOVERNMENT PAYING SUBSIDIES FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD COVERAGE? PROBABLY NOT.

Page 203 Line 14-15 Health Care -- "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax". Yes, it says that.

IT DOES. AND IT'S FUNNY. BUT TAX IS A LEGAL TERM UNDER THE IRS RULES AND THIS IS A CLARIFICATION.

Page 239 Line 14-24 -- Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, and poor will be affected.

NO. THE LANGUAGE IS NOT VERY CLEAR BUT IT REFERS TO A FEE SCHEDULE, WHICH IS IN PLACE NOW ANYWAY FOR MEDICAID. YOU THINK GOVERNMENT PAYS ANYTHING A PROVIDER CHARGES WITHOUT CHECKING IT?

Page 241 Line 6-8 -- All doctors will be paid the same regardless of their specialty.

NO. THIS REFERS ONLY TO A CERTAIN EVALUATION AND MANAGEMENT PROGRAM IN MEDICARE. IT IS NOT A BLANKET PROVISION BY ANY MEANS.

Page 253 Line 10-18 -- Government sets value of doctors' time, professional judgment, etc.; literally the value of humans.

THE RVU (RELATIVE VALUE UNIT) IS THE WAY DOCTORS ARE PAID FOR MEDICARE NOW. IT'S A COMPLICATED FORMULA. PHYSICIANS ACCEPT IT, AND ACTUALLY, SOME LIKE IT BECAUSE IT REWARDS THEM FOR TIME SPENT TALKING TO PATIENTS, NOT JUST TIME WRITING PRESCRIPTIONS. THIS WHOLE SECTION IS ABOUT PAYMENT FOR MEDICARE. MEDICARE ALREADY USES THESE FORMULAS. IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE THIS, WHY DIDN'T YOU SPEAK UP EARLIER WHEN MEDICARE WAS PASSED IN 1965?

Page 265 Section 1131 -- Government mandates and controls productivity for private Health Care industries.

THIS IS FOR MEDICARE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EXCHANGE OR PRIVATE PLANS.

Page 268 Section 1141 -- Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

THIS IS ABOUT MEDICARE. GOVERNMENT ALREADY DOES THIS. NOT EVERYONE NEEDS A POWER DRIVEN WHEELCHAIR. DON'T YOU WANT YOUR TAXPAYER MONEY BEING SPENT WISELY BY MEDICARE?

Page 272 Section. 1145 -- Treatment at certain CANCER HOSPITALS; rationing for cancer patients.

NO. THIS REFERS TO MEDICARE PAYMENTS TO CANCER HOSPITALS AND THE ATTEMPT BY GOVERNMENT TO KEEP COSTS UNDER CONTROL BY NOT OVERPAYING.

Page 280 Section 1151 -- The government will penalize hospitals for what government deems preventable re-admissions.

THIS REFERS TO MEDICARE AGAIN. AND YES, IF A HOSPITAL DUMPS A PATIENT OUT BEFORE THEY ARE READY TO LEAVE AND THEY HAVE TO COME BACK AND BE ADMITTED AGAIN, THE HOSPITAL SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT. THIS IS ONLY FOR MEDICARE.

Page 298 Lines 9-11 -- Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission and the government will penalize the doctor.

THIS APPLIES TO MEDICARE ONLY. AND YES, THE DOCTOR WHO RELEASES THE PATIENT SHOULD ALSO BE RESPONSIBLE IF THE PATIENT HAS TO COME BACK.

Page 317 Lines 13-20 -- PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells doctors what/how much they can own.

NOT ALL OWNERSHIP. JUST SITUATIONS WHERE DOCTORS OWN THE MAJORITY OF A HOSPITAL OR LAB AND ONLY SEND THEIR PATIENTS TO THE PLACE THEY OWN, THUS INCREASING THEIR INCOME BUT NOT GIVING PATIENT ANY CHOICE. THERE ARE ALREADY PROHIBITIONS ON WHAT THEY CALL "SELF-REFERRAL" IN PLACE, ALTHOUGH THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS EFFECTIVE.

Page 317-318vLines 21-25,1-3 -- PROHIBITION on hospital expansions.

NO. ONLY SITUATIONS WHERE DOCTORS OWN THE HOSPITAL AS WELL AS THE LABS, ETC. AND THEY HAVE A MONOPOLY.

Page 321 2-13 -- Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. Approval by ACORN?

NOTHING SAID ABOUT ACORN HERE OF COURSE. AND BY THE WAY, THERE HAVE BEEN PROGRAMS TO REVIEW HOSPITAL EXPANSIONS SINCE 1980. THESE PROGRAMS WERE CALLED HEALTH PLANNING AND THEY ALLOWED THE PUBLIC TO COME AND COMMENT ON WHETHER OR NOT A HOSPITAL SHOULD BUY A NEW MRI OR BUILD A NEW WING..

Page 335 Lines 16-25; Page 336-339 -- Government mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Health Care the way they want it. Rationing.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO MEDICARE AT FIRST, BUT IT IS COMMONLY USED NOW IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. WHY SHOULDN'T WE MEASURE THE QUALITY OF CARE RECEIVED? HEDIS, CAPHS, ALL USED FOR YEARS BY PRIVATE SECTOR -- EVEN BEFORE MEDICARE USED THESE MEASURES -- MOST DOCTORS AND HOSPITALS AGREE THAT OUTCOME MEASURES ARE IMPORTANT. THIS IS NOT CONTROVERSIAL IN MOST CIRCLES. WHO DOESN'T WANT BETTER QUALITY CARE?

Page 341 Lines 3-9 -- Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMO's, etc., thus forcing people into government plan.

YIKES. MEDICARE IS A GOVERNMENT PLAN. AND IT'S MEDICARE ADVANTAGE, NOT ADVANCE. AND MEDICARE ADVANTAGE PLANS ARE HMOS AND PPOS AVAILABLE TO MEDICARE BENEFICIARIES NOW. THE PROGRAM WAS STARTED BY PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH. THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH RUNS MEDICARE, HAS ALWAYS REGULATED MEDICARE ADVANTAGE PLANS SINCE THEY FIRST STARTED.

Page 354 Section 1177 -- Government will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people.

NO. THIS PROVISION ATTEMPTS TO STRENGTHEN PLANS THAT SERVE PEOPLE WITH SPECIAL NEEDS. YOU READ IT COMPLETELY WRONG.

Page 379 Section 1191 -- Government creates more bureaucracy -- Tele-Health Advisory Committee. Health Care by phone?

ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN REMOTE AREAS. THIS WOULD ALLOW DOCTORS TO TALK TO PATIENTS WHO LIVE IN ALASKA OR SOME RURAL AREA WHO ARE SICK AND CAN'T GET TO A DOCTOR IN A TIMELY WAY. IT COULD SAVE LIVES.

Page 425 Lines 4-12 -- Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consults. Think senior citizens end of life.

THIS ONE REALLY MAKES ME MAD. ALL THIS DOES IS ALLOW PEOPLE TO CHOOSE (GET IT, CHOOSE?) TO HAVE A CONSULTATION ABOUT WHAT IS CALLED AN ADVANCED DIRECTIVE. AN ADVANCED DIRECTIVE IS NOTHING MORE THAN A STATEMENT BY A PERSON ABOUT HOW THEY CHOOSE (CHOOSE!) TO BE TREATED IF THEY GET A TERMINAL DISEASE. THE PERSON CAN DECIDE THEY WANT EVERYTHING POSSIBLE DONE FOR THEM OR THEY CAN DECIDE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ON FEEDING TUBES. BUT IT IS THEIR CHOICE. NO ONE ELSE'S. AND THIS IS AN OPTIONAL BENEFIT. NO ONE NEEDS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT IF THEY DON'T WANT TO.

Page 425 Lines 17-19 -- Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

NOT MANDATORY. NOT MANDATORY. NOT MANDATORY.
OPTIONAL. OPTIONAL. OPTIONAL.
IF YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE A CONSULTATION EVERY FIVE YEARS, YOU CAN. IF YOU DO NOT CHOOSE TO DO IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 -- Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.

THE LIST OF RESOURCES IS JUST A LIST SO PEOPLE KNOW WHERE TO FIND OUT INFORMATION.

427 Lines 15-24 -- Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The government has a say in how your life ends.

NO MANDATE. NO SAY IN HOW YOUR LIFE ENDS.
THIS IS AN OPTIONAL PROGRAM. . BUT IF THERE IS A PROGRAM TO ADVISE PEOPLE, OF COURSE THE GOVERNMENT WANTS THAT PROGRAM TO GIVE ACCURATE INFORMATION AND RESPECT PEOPLE'S WISHES.

Page 429 Lines 1-9 -- An "Advanced Care Planning Consultant" will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.

CAN BE USED MORE FREQUENTLY. NOT WILL BE USED. IF THE PATIENT IS DYING QUICKLY AND NEEDS MORE HELP, THAT HELP WILL BE AVAILABLE.

Page 429 Lines 10-12 -- "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from Government!

NOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT. IT PLAINLY SAYS IF THERE IS AN ORDER -- FROM THE PATIENT TO THE DOCTOR -- THE DOCTOR ISSUES THE ORDER. NOT THE GOVERNMENT. READ IT! LINES 13-25.

Page 429 Lines 13-25 - The government will specify which doctors can write an end of life order.
.
NO. ONLY DOCTORS WHO ARE LICENSED PROFESSIONALS CAN MAKE THAT ORDER. AND THE ORDER IS AT THE REQUEST OF THE PATIENT TO START WITH. GOVERNMENT ONLY ASSURES THAT A REAL DOCTOR OR QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IS HELPING OUT.

Page 430 Lines 11-15 -- The government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

NO. THE INDIVIDUAL PATIENT DECIDES THAT. IT PLAINLY STATES THAT THE INDIVIDUAL DECIDES. NOT THE GOVERNMENT. NOT EVEN THE DOCTOR.

Page 469 -- Community Based Home Medical Services = Non-profit organizations. ACORN Medical Services?

NOTHING TO DO WITH ACORN. AND IT'S NOT HOME MEDICAL. IT'S "MEDICAL HOME." THAT'S A CONCEPT THAT IS GAINING A LOT OF RESPECT AMONG PRIMARY CARE DOCTORS BECAUSE IT ALLOWS THEM TO GET PAID FOR HELPING TO COORDINATE PATIENT CARE MORE EFFECTIVELY.

Page 472 Lines 14-17 -- Payment to community-based organizations; One monthly payment to a community-based organization like ACORN.

ACORN IS NOT A MEDICAL HOME OR A MEDICAL ORGANIZATION. NO PAYMENT TO ACORN. I HAVE SEARCHED THE BILL AND ACORN IS NEVER MENTIONED.

Page 489 Section 1308 -- The government will cover marriage and family therapy, which means they will insert government into your marriage.

NO. THIS IS A CLARIFICATION OF A BENEFIT UNDER MEDICARE. IT ALLOWS CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKERS TO BE INCLUDED AS WELL AS PSYCHOLOGISTS. IT IS VERY TEMPTING TO GET SNARKY ABOUT THIS ONE. A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD USE A LOT MORE MARRIAGE COUNSELING!!

ScreenName
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Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 769

Does anyone find it at all surprising that so many outright LIES are being told by the republican'ts who oppose any effort whatsoever to bring meaningful reform to the health care system? These same people get huge amounts of money from the health insurance industry, which has a vested interest as keeping the health care system as highly profitable as possible. The opponents are making the same arguments against this reform effort as were used against Medicare when it was established in the 60's. People need to understand that the current system is unsustainable and, therefore, unacceptable.  

brennymac
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Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 85

What I do not find surprising is that they're unable to look past this administration. "Obama will dictate your healthcare!", etc. Do they realize that by the time all this is implemented they'll have a shot to take back the white house and either scrap it or use it to their own political ends? What better means than nationalized healthcare to block abortion in the U.S.? To eliminate the apparent threat to families that is the transgendered (Ohso, you out there?)? But if they'd rather save face by opposing everything Obama suggests, that's their call. Maybe he should start proposing conservative ideas just to watch Rush, Hannity, and the rest find a way to shoot down their own stuff. You have to love political blinders.

KragJorgensen1896
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Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363

I find it surprising that people defend Obama and the Democrats when it is clear they are being elusive about the details/costs of their plans. These are the same people who promised unemployment would not go above 8% if we passed their stimulus package. It's about 10% now.

Their plans are projected by the CBO to increase the deficit but Obama claims the plans will "save money". Obama was quoted during an earlier campaign rally before the 2008 elections that he wanted to eliminate private insurance entirely and move to a government controlled single payer system.Yet he claims people can keep the private coverage they have. Some of the plans force people to have coverage or face a tax penalty if they do not comply.

Does this sound too good to be true or sustainable? A government run program supposedly promising "better quality", lower costs but covering millions more people?  Even the press complained that Obama wasn't "making the sale" during his last press conference on this issue. We just heard more of the same from him: "we've got to get it done". Medicare is going broke and is unsustainable. How many times have Medicare cost estimates been revised because it ended up costing much more than when the program started?

Obama and his party do not have a vested interest in keeping the government as big and intrusive as possible? Of course they do. Big government activism/redistribution of income for "fairness" reasons are still bread and butter issues of the left wing of the Democratic Party and despite claims saying otherwise, Obama is no "moderate".

Some of us do not think "meaningful reform" to health care is just having the government come in and take over while bleeding the taxpayers to satisfy the "health care is a right" faction of the left wing. Democrats want nothing to do with tax credits for purchasing insurance, malpractice reform or the use of health savings accounts.

 

 

 

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

(1) The Republican-caused recession was worse than people thought it would be.  In fact, even though Republicans refused to admit we were IN recession, it turns out that the Bush Recession actually began -- officially -- in 2007, not 2008.  This, too, is plain BS.  Speculators and the wealthy did just fine after the 2001 dot.com blip ... but most working people that I know never receovered after that.  Without a stimulus plan to slow things down, unemployment could very easily be "officially" in the 15-18% range ... but since we know that the "official" unemployment rate is actually about 8-10% higher, well, you do the math.

(2) Yes, the plan will save money.  And, once people go back to work and have some income that can be taxed, they will contribute revenue that suffered its worse decline since 1936 (a new report tells us).  Revenue will also increase when those who have benefited over the past eight years fromill-advised tax breaks start paying at a higher rate.  His plans require that EVERYONE have health care coverage.  Those who refuse will be hunted down and arrested, forced to serve time under Republican tough-love statutes alongside murderers and marijuana possessers.  People will still be able to CHOOSE what type of insurance they have ... a frightening consideration for Republicans who oppose all forms of choice.  Actually, unless you LIKE the insurance plan provided by your employer (over which you have ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE) and decide to keep it, you will be able to do something you cannot do now ... choose your insurance plan.

(3) Government run programs do just fine, thank you (better than corporate run programs, I might add, as I think to myself how many corporations have put men on the moon, or brought them back safely from an orbitting space station? ... how many corporations have successfully waged war against Middle-Eastern dictators? ... how many private corporations have offered single-payer health care to the entire armed forces? ... and so on).  Medcare is doing fine, thanks ... but I am sure you will be glad to give yours up and allow someone to be convered in your place.

(4) Yes, indeed.  The Democratic Party is all in favor of protecting the majority of the population from the blood-sucking predators who currently are in charge (unfortunately, too many Dems take their campaign donations and their orders from the same pool of bloodsuckers, so in a body politic of only 535 members, most of us remain largely unrepresented).  You are right about one thing ... Dems DO seek to redistribute wealth downwards.  That's because the other guys (some call them Republicans) seek to distribute wealth from the bottom to the top.  Look how well they have been doing that since 1981, when concentration of wealth in this country has returned to pre-1929 levels.

(5) I'm interested in malpractice reform ... but I also do not want some powerful blood-sucker limiting how much I can claim so he can cover his own rear end (which is what so-called "tort-reform" generally is all about).  Applying tax credits for purchasing insurance will be part of the Health Exchange, assuming those seeking to join the Exchange meet all criteria.  The same goes for health savings accounts.  Sorry ... in respect to these three particular worries, you have bought a boatload of guano from the propagandists at the Health Industry Exchange.

CCKitty
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Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 361

In reviewing Shay's comment : "His plans require that EVERYONE have health care coverage." 

Kind of cracked me up - different reading this vs hearing it, so hard to tell the tone -

Although, stating that we are "required" most certainly would irk the very essence of the American mindset. Something about the word "required" - can be like nails to a chalkboard and have an even more detrimental effect than what was intended, with a reflexive NO! response (which may not even be intended either).

Hey- it took me years to recover from somene telling me it was required for me to be immunized for certain types of employment. But I draw the line when I am told it is mandatory to get a flu shot (not the H1N1 - BTW) because "one" person in your place of employment calls in sick every week. In fact, I did refuse. Not my fault - I wasn't the one calling in sick!There are just some things best done because you want to or because it is the right thing to do. OK - I digress - but it is real and it is another example of a smoke screen requirement.

Then when Shay said - Those who refuse will be hunted down and arrested, forced to serve time under Republican tough-love statutes alongside murderers and marijuana possessers"

Again - just cracked me up - Possibly another opening job market for Bounty Hunters? LOL -

I can see it now - a truck load of 'em - driving around in their Obama Mobile's with the sign pasted on the side "Medical Coverage Mercenaries" . When they catch you they slap one of those medical bracelets on you, make you sit in a room full of sick adults and screaming infants, hand you a clipboard (with NO pen to write with) and demand you complete 50 pages of forms. Of which, every other page has the same set of questions. That will show You for not being like everyone else!

- Uhhh - a joke, only a joke. Any opinions expressed in this comment appear to be familiar or similar to other opinions expressed? Only a coincidence. Do not take this seriously - (or should you?)

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

You're close, CCKitty.  But first, let me thank you for your lucid and humor injected response.  I love wit and cleverness!

Anyway, you only got a part of it right.  There's more!  Did you read that the 9th Circuit Court ruled that California must find a way to release 40,000 prisoners over the next three years in order to relieve the overcrowding (and thereby reduce the unsanitary and unhealthy conditions created by such inhumane incarceration)?  Check the timing ... by the end of 2012, which is one year before OBAMACARE [cue sinister organ music] is scheduled to kick in, California's prisons will have 40,000 openings (at least).  No other state needs to join the party, though many other have similar overcrowding conditions due to 30 years of "get tough on crime" neo-fascism, and may quickly follow suit. 

But let's assume none do, and we just have those 40,000 slots.  So, gangs of Medical Mercenaries driving around in their Obamamobiles (fuel efficient, of course, and made by GM) start rounding up uninsured Patriots.  Since many of these folks also hold strong to their Second Amendment rights, undoubtedly some of these confrontations will be bloody and many will only go so far as the morgue, never making it to the overcrowded medical clinic you so aptly described. 

But what happens after they complete their 50 page quesionairre?  Here's the good part. 

The first forty thousand are sent to the newly evacuated (but still overcrowded) prisons, where they are locked up with those deemed too dangerous to be set free.  Additional resisters (number dependent on the degree of resistance) are jammed in with them.  Overcrowding, in the New World Order, doesn't really matter, because these folk have no medical insurance, have been exposed (as you described) to a room full of sick adults with screaming infants contaminated by viruses known (and unknown, but as yet unevolved) to man, and are destined to infect one another and left untreated until dead.  These will be the new leper colonies!

All of this will come about, of course, because California set the new standard of universal coverage.  One cannot (legally) drive or even own a car in California, or hold a (valid) California driver's licence, unless one shows proof of automobile insurance.  There are some, of course, who do not obey the law (chances are when you finally do get in a car accident, the guy who hit you and whose fault it was probably is the only guy in California who did not obey this particular law), but most of us have managed to survive and even thrive with this minor intrusion into our freedom to be irresponsible.  The Obama plan (universal health care coverage) may or may not become law ... the House bill (HR 3200) does not contain such a provision ... but my gosh how "American" to resist doing what you are told!

The funny thing about this attitude is that the people who usualy scream the most about the audacity and the very nerve of people not doing what they are told are the first ones to resist when told they must do something they don't want to do!

ScreenName
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Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 769

"Tort reform" is a red herring issue. California enacted caps on medical malpractice damage awards years ago, along with a number of other so-called malpractice reforms, but such cases continue to be filed and California has very high rates of health care and health insurance costs relative to other states. The fact is that medical malpractice is real and does happen. When it does, those who suffer injuries as a result deserve to be compensated at a level that will realistically provide the medical care and other remedial relief they will require. Malpractice victims do not receive a discount on the cost of the medical care and other assistance they need.

A major problem with the federal government enacting 'medical tort reform' is that most negligence laws and requirements are embodied in state, not federal, law. In order for the federal government to take any meaningful action in this area, it would not only have to infringe upon the sovereignty of the various states, but it would have to enact a 'one size fits all' approach to what is now an issue determined on a state by state basis. You usually hear the right wingers railing against big government intruding upon matters that should be left to states and local governments to address. A federal medical tort reform law would be a massive intrusion on the jurisdictions and primacy of the states and their various bodies of law. Funny how you don't hear the right wingers complaining about that.       

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Right wingers only complain about Big Government (or judicial activism) when it works against them.  They do not object to the Supreme Court deciding how a state should decide to count votes cast in the state (even if they had to call a "king's x" and a "time out" in order to declare that they were not setting precedent ... just selecting a president ... when they did so).  They do not object to the federal government imposing tests and scripted curriculum on local school districts.  They would like the federal government to dictate to the states how to define marriage.  They succeeded, for eight years, telling the states that they could not set separate emission requirements for the vehicles sold within their borders.  And they would very much like to impose tort reform on the states, as you say.

KragJorgensen1896
KragJorgensen1896's picture

Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363

<(1) The Republican-caused recession was worse than people thought it would be.  In fact, even though Republicans refused to admit we were IN recession, it turns out that the Bush Recession actually began -- officially -- in 2007, not 2008.  This, too, is plain BS.  Speculators and the wealthy did just fine after the 2001 dot.com blip ... but most working people that I know never receovered after that.  Without a stimulus plan to slow things down, unemployment could very easily be "officially" in the 15-18% range ... but since we know that the "official" unemployment rate is actually about 8-10% higher, well, you do the math.>

How convenient. It was someone else's fault so that excuses everything Obama has said and done since he was elected and he has no responsibility whatsoever for the results. Let's ignore that Obama has no experience running a business/meeting a payroll/managing an organization. Maybe the "community organizer" is not up to the task of creating jobs/economic growth because his only experience is promoting left wing causes/spending taxpayer dollars/growing bureaucracies.

I have done the math. Obama is running up deficits/debt as far as the eye can see that won't be paid down anytime soon. Even the European countries and China are expressing concern about Obama's economic policies/deficits. And the "cap and trade" energy tax plans that he wants are not likely to "stimulate" the economy.

<(2) Yes, the plan will save money.  And, once people go back to work and have some income that can be taxed, they will contribute revenue that suffered its worse decline since 1936 (a new report tells us).  Revenue will also increase when those who have benefited over the past eight years fromill-advised tax breaks start paying at a higher rate.  His plans require that EVERYONE have health care coverage.  Those who refuse will be hunted down and arrested, forced to serve time under Republican tough-love statutes alongside murderers and marijuana possessers.  People will still be able to CHOOSE what type of insurance they have ... a frightening consideration for Republicans who oppose all forms of choice.  Actually, unless you LIKE the insurance plan provided by your employer (over which you have ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE) and decide to keep it, you will be able to do something you cannot do now ... choose your insurance plan.>

The CBO says it won't, the "Blue Dogs" complained about the costs but you say it will "save money". Is that all you have? The "savings" will come with care rationing for seniors and they are figuring this out. Obama essentially admitted this in a town hall meeting when someone asked if their 100 year old relative should receive a pacemaker.

The "choice" issue doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny or else not for long. Obama and prominent Democrat leaders (Pelosi, Frank, etc.) want to migrate to a single payer government run system. What kind of "choice" is that?

Democrats don't like that people choose to own firearms. Left wing jurisdictions do everything they can from preventing the law abiding from doing so and defend outright bans on ownership.

<(3) Government run programs do just fine, thank you (better than corporate run programs, I might add, as I think to myself how many corporations have put men on the moon, or brought them back safely from an orbitting space station? ... how many corporations have successfully waged war against Middle-Eastern dictators? ... how many private corporations have offered single-payer health care to the entire armed forces? ... and so on).  Medcare is doing fine, thanks ... but I am sure you will be glad to give yours up and allow someone to be convered in your place.>

Medicare has trillions of dollars in unfunded obligations. Let me guess. Another tax increase on the rich to fix it? Sooner or later there will not be enough. Who do you think would do a better job of oil exploration/refining/supplying energy at the lowest cost and in quantity - Chevron or the government?

<(4) Yes, indeed.  The Democratic Party is all in favor of protecting the majority of the population from the blood-sucking predators who currently are in charge (unfortunately, too many Dems take their campaign donations and their orders from the same pool of bloodsuckers, so in a body politic of only 535 members, most of us remain largely unrepresented).  You are right about one thing ... Dems DO seek to redistribute wealth downwards.  That's because the other guys (some call them Republicans) seek to distribute wealth from the bottom to the top.  Look how well they have been doing that since 1981, when concentration of wealth in this country has returned to pre-1929 levels.>

The Democratic Party is in favor of taking from those who earn and giving to those who do not for endless and elusive "fairness" reasons. This creates incentives for people to remain dependent on government, discourages self reliance and punishes those who work/play by the rules and do well. It is amusing to listen to Democrats arguing it is somehow "unfair" that someone worked and did well while others couldn't be bothered to do the same. It's just more of the "economic exploitation" nonsense - while supposedly defending "choice" or "freedom", if you did well you must have prevented someone else from doing so or cheated in the process and should be made an example of.

It's hardly freedom or a "choice" following your suggestion - a 70% tax rate on the "rich". If you earn it, we want most of it. Who is going to protect us from that kind of reasoning? No skin off of your nose, right? Someone else will have to pay that rate.

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Part I:  The computer I am using will not allow me to move to different parts of my post ... everytime I try to click in a new part at the bottom (to add new thoughts) it scrolls back up to the top.  Therefore, I will have to reply to each of your various assertions in separate messages.  This is the first.

How convenient. It was someone else's fault so that excuses everything Obama has said and done since he was elected and he has no responsibility whatsoever for the results. Let's ignore that Obama has no experience running a business/meeting a payroll/managing an organization. Maybe the "community organizer" is not up to the task  ...

It WAS someone else's fault.  This is a FACT that burro-headed ostriches and "Me Firsters" stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.  The Bush Recession was caused by irresponsible and hypocritical deficit spending and tax breaks given to the top 2% of income earners coupled with deregulation of the financial, housing and corporate sectors.  Before any campaign promises could be implemented, the Obama administration had to address the imminent collapse of Wall Street and the international banking community.  The majority of economists predicted that two to three trillion dollars in some kind of govenment stimulus package (e.g., borrowed money) would be necessary just to SLOW DOWN the stramroller unleashed by frightened economic "gurus" when they decided they needed to be bailed out from their reckless and immoral speculation.  The Bush deficit in 2008, alone, was in the vicinity of $1.8 trillion ... and the Obama administration INHERITED this mess without even having a chance to lift a finger to do anything about it.

As to "responsibility" ... Barack Obama has assumed complete responsibility for all actions he has asked be taken.  The only people claiming otherwise are people like yourself, who are making the charge up from whole cloth and your own deluded sense of history.

UnnamedSourc
UnnamedSourc's picture

Joined: Aug 2004
Current Posts: 32

Get your head of out howard dean's [bleep] orifice and see the light.

ht tp://ww w.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Featuring+Frank%3A+Symbol+of+failure&articleId=f78b0491-9b36-4478-9ee9-e23d6c06b24e

 

h ttp://w ww.youtube.com/watch?v=-CT6HIDPbPc

 

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Part 2:  The "savings" will come with care rationing for seniors and they are figuring this out. Obama essentially admitted this in a town hall meeting when someone asked if their 100 year old relative should receive a pacemaker.  The "choice" issue doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny or else not for long. Obama and prominent Democrat leaders (Pelosi, Frank, etc.) want to migrate to a single payer government run system. What kind of "choice" is that?  Democrats don't like that people choose to own firearms. Left wing jurisdictions do everything they can from preventing the law abiding from doing so and defend outright bans on ownership.

The savings will come when everyone has coverage, everyone is chipping in, and costs are reduced.  Anyone who thinks there are any "savings" in the future is either stupid or believes in the tooth fairy ... but anyone who thinks the current system is going to suddenly start costing less, or is going to become more efficient because the leeches in the for-profit system promise they can do "better" is worse -- either a liar or just plain disingenuous.  "Rationing" of health care is a red herring invented by the "Swift Boat" propagandists for ignorant fools to swallow.   Very few people (besides the top 2% who have gurgled at the trough of public gratuity for the past 8 years) get to choose their current health care provider.  Read HR 3200.  EVERYONE will have choice from amongst all the plans that enter the Health Exchange; they will even be able to choose plans that are NOT in the Health Exchange (if they can afford them). 

I only WISH the plan was to move to a single-payer system.  No such luck, buddy.

And wouldn't you know you would be able to work "guns" into this discussion.  It figures that the only "choice" that an ultra-conservative would support is the manner in which he can kill someone else.  I just figured it out ... ultra-conservatives are Death Eaters.

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

And you, sir (I use the word out of politeness, only ... I realize you believe that wealth bestows nobility and that we should all bow before our royal barons, but I for one don't buy such elitism with even an ounce of belief) don't know of which you speak.

I am well-armed, and have been since the sixties.  Peace and love, my brown hiney.  I just don't think thick-skulled rednecks should be allowed to possess anything more deadly than a pea-shooter unless they can pass a simple gun-safety test and demonstrate some understanding of the rights of man.  Nor do I think semi-automatic weapons can be justified in civilian hands for any reason, whatsoever.  Yes ... many people in this country (left and right) are tired of gun violence and seek a way to regulate ownership of them.  More power to them!  That is a CHOICE that they exercise under the First Amendment (which trumps the one that comes after it, especially since our "right" to possess weapons is based upon INTERPRETATION by activist judges).

Still, I commend your literary skill in finding the only "choice" that conservatives seem to favor ... which was my point.  And, since you say nothing to refute my contention, I will repeat it here:  conservatives, because the only "choice" they honor is the right to choose to kill other people, must be Death Eaters.

By the way, I would gladly give over my guns if owning guns were illegal.  Then, the only people with guns would be criminals (as the Right contends), and they would be subject to arrest and harsh punishment the moment they displayed on (for whatever reason).  But ... since no one is seriously proposing that all guns be prohibited ... this is a gesture that I don't have to back up with deeds.  However, if a more serious proposal were entertained (and passed) ... to wit, that I license my weapons and apply for (and earn) a license to carry one ... I would support that whole-heartedly.

That said, I find it interesting how you manage to turn EVERY single conversation into an attack against liberals for seeking to find humane, genuine, and sincere solutions to the gun violence epidemic that infects the American people.

Even a discussion of human health.

KragJorgensen1896
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Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363

There is nothing noteworthy about the political left wanting to own guns but at the same time wanting to restrict others from doing the same. Dianne Feinstein owned handguns when she was the mayor of San Francisco but insisted others turn them in for "violence prevention" purposes. And no surprise you bringing up the "semi automatic" firearm issue as a "crisis" despite that this kind of technology has been around for over a hundred years. Suddenly it's a "problem" that needs to be done away with. Gun safety and training tests are ignored by criminals and once again you perpetuate the argument that forcing average citizens to comply with "safety" regulations is somehow going to stop what happens on the streets. It won't.

Liberals have earned the right to be attacked on this issue. It is hardly humane and sincere to continually promote the idea that forcing uncles and grandfathers to submit fingerprints and mugshots is the only thing holding us back from a crime prevention windfall. Here's another "genuine" proposal from the liberals - sue the gun makers for the actions of criminals misusing their legal products. While where at it let's sue GM for drunk drivers making unsafe lane changes in Buicks. Their "solutions" are to restrict or ban firearms from people who have nothing to do with the problem while portraying those who actually do as being "infected" by an "epidemic of gun violence". Be my guest and support licensing of owners and watch what happens later. License holders will be the first ones "cracked down" on when criminals step out of line and it will be justified on the basis of violence prevention. Remember what happened to Federal Firearms License holders in the early 1990s when Bill Clinton was president?

Spare us the lecture about elitism. It's coming from you and your distorted view of "fairness", "government knows what's best" attitude (in a nation where the government is supposed to have limited powers) and the income redistribution/spending schemes you want to use to get there while calling it "freedom" and "for the people". Only if the "people" go along with what you want and bow to your wishes. And we've seen some examples of the "save the world" belief system of the left not working - the Great Society programs to end poverty. Poverty didn't end, trillions of dollars were spent in the process and the left still opposed welfare reforms.

In keeping with the claim of liberals being generous with other people's money you want to tax 70% of someone's earnings unless they do what you want. You want to force businesses to pay inflated wages to workers to "make it fair". And if someone earns more than your "standard" or what you decide they "need" you'll claim they are"greedy" and/or are "not paying their fair share" and demand they surrender it to be spread around. You have no problem supporting and bowing to the "robber barons" running and expanding state/federal governments who think what you earn belongs to them to spend as they wish.

shays
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Current Posts: 1715

As I have said before, I have no interest in arguing with you about guns (since a 'discussion' is clearly out of the picture) ... I mentioned them only because I was so astounded that you could turn a discussion on health care into a discussion about gun ownership.  The last thing I will say on the topic (you are free, of course, to hold your breath until you turn blue) is to repeat ... for the THIRD time ... what I said in the original message:  the only "choice" conservatives care about is the choice over which gun to own, and so conservatives must be Death Eaters.

I have never, ever said that "government knows best" ... nor will you ever hear me say such a thing.  What I will say is that WE are the government (or at least, used to be), and government has to work for ALL of us (not just the economic or politically connected elite).  Poverty will never be ended, but government intervention can reduce it, and create conditions by which those who choose to make an effort might be able to escape it.  We've had thirty years of the other, social darwinist approach ... and the gap between wealth and poverty has increased (to the highest levels since 1929), power is exercised and controlled by the top 1-2% for their own benefit, and everyone else gets trickle-down slop if it materializes (and eight years of accelerated laissez-faire on steroids under Bush not only produced nothing for the bottom 95%, but actually took stuff away from them).  My sense of "fairness" is such that even eighth graders can see it, but is something that the privileged and greedy cannot see with even a guide dog to help them.

The top two percent of the population currently pays about 68% of all taxes collected in this country, but earns more than 75% of all the income.  My goal is to make income and taxes equal.  If you control 3/4 of the nation's wealth, you contribute that much to the nation's well-being.  Pretty simple formula.  It worked in the fifties and sixties (a fact you cannot refute), and it can work again today.  I have no problem with requiring people to work to receive assistance (unless they suffer a disqualifying disability), but you wouldn't allow that to happen if the government did the hiring, would you?

shays
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Part 3:  Medicare has trillions of dollars in unfunded obligations. Let me guess. Another tax increase on the rich to fix it? Sooner or later there will not be enough. Who do you think would do a better job of oil exploration/refining/supplying energy at the lowest cost and in quantity - Chevron or the government?

Medicare is and will do just fine.  Tax increases on the rich, however, is a good idea.  They deprived the treasury for about $2 trillion over the last eight years (and most of them also belong to the looting class that robbed people of their homes and livelihoods while they amassed monstrously obscene fortunes), so I think they owe.  Big time.  Unfortunately, I am in the minority in this one, so will have to settle for token and miniscule tax increases.

For about the last 3 years I have been trying to tell everyone that "sooner or later there won't be enough" ... there won't be enough money for the few to hoard, because they will have it all; there won't be enough clean water to drink because they will have turned their back on common sense requirements that they spend a little of their fortunes to help us all have clean water (or air); there won't be enough food to eat because of environmental disruptions and increasing natural disasters (caused in no small part by plowing under Earth's grasslands and chopping down Earth's forests), not to mention virulent diseases caused by rapidly evolving viruses.  The fabuloulsy wealthy think their riches will secure them against the coming environmental apocalypse, but as the rich in all failed societies have found, it doesn't work that way ... no one gets spared.

 In regards to your question about Chevron, boy did you bark up the wrong metaphorical tree.  Because of the inherent greed of multinational corporations like Chevron that live for present profits and the narrow self-interests of their own (as opposed to the general welfare of everyone), there soon will be NO OIL for Chevron to extract, refine, and distribute.  And, because of the inherent greed and self-interest of multinational corporations like Chevron, we are thirty years behind where we could have been in terms of developing alternative energy sources.  As if that is not bad enough, the special interests that represent Chevron (et. al. ... meaning the entire corporate system) make sure that the means of distribution are also monopolized until Chevron (it hopes) can control future energy production.  In other words, Chevron (et. al.) has monopolized a single approach, but purposefully prevented other approaches from being developed.  And now we find ourselves at the precipice of doomsday because of the short-sighted, self-interested, profit-driven machinations of a relatively small number of overly influential people.

Which is one of way of saying that just as the federal government was the ONLY employer that could build transcontinental highways, bridges, dams, electrical grids and networks, and air transportation system, schools, hospitals and hundreds of other necessities between 1936 and 1952 (ish) ... so today is the federal government the only source of capital and authority big enough -- and trustworthy enough -- to stand up to the gluttony of capital and those, like yourself, who wish to hoard it while the rest of us go belly-up.

KragJorgensen1896
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I didn't "bark up the wrong tree" and you didn't answer the original question. Instead of replying as to which would do a better job to delivering current energy supplies in quantity and at lowest cost (necessary for economic growth) you went on a rant about "greed" and the world coming to an end about climate change.

Chevron delivers/explores for energy more efficiently than a government run system because it has to turn a profit doing so or it will go out of business/be outperformed by competition. Governments have fewer (or no) incentives to operate efficiently because they will never go out of business, do not have to be profitable and can just be funded with additional taxpayer dollars. What happened to gas prices during price controls with Nixon? Shortages. Which organizations with industry expertise do the Middle Eastern nations call on to develop their oil fields?

Running out of oil? We heard those predictions back in the 1950s and there are still reserves in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico. What other source of energy is cheaper and in abundance? And what do we do with the vehicles currently using it now? Ban them? 

This nation needs an energy source that is inexpensive and has the required infrastructure to deliver it to keep the economy going. Viable alternatives are years away. The "shoe horn" approach of cap and trade, forcing coal power plants out of business or mandatory wind/solar requirements that currently make up tiny fractions of supply (that Obama and the left wing want) will result in shortages, higher energy costs and fewer jobs.

So are we better off if a working class guy (that the Democratic Party supposedly represents) has to pay $7 a gallon to satisfy the narrow interests of groups like the Sierra Club or the sky is falling climate change crowd (as opposed to the general welfare of others who use/need energy sources)?

shays
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So, how well did any of the major corporate builders or energy companies do in this country when it came to building the great dams that drive the economies of the desert west? (start ticking off the things that those dams provide ... that'll keep you out of mischief for a while).  What was the role of the private sector in erecting our transcontinental highway system (or the Railroad Barons, in a different age, in the transcontinental railroad)?  The public good is NOT served by private corporations, except accidentally.  Chevron conspired, for example, with the automobile industry and Firestone rubber to almost single-handedly destroy public transportation in southern California and turn the region into an automobile dependent culture.  Fine and dandy (as long as that resource was plentiful and thereby cheap) ... but the basis for an entire society to collapse if it cannot find a way to break its dependency.  And what is even more sinful is that Chevron (et. al.) has spent the last 30 years purposefully standing in the way of finding alternatives!  THAT'S WHY YOU PICKED THE WRONG EXAMPLE, KNUCKLEHEAD.

Short-term profit works contrary to long-term social needs, every time.

It is ostriches like yourself who cannot see the future through your billfold that create ghost towns (how long did the gold last? ... how long did Tombstone thrive? ... how long did whale oil last? ... how long did charcoal last in China as a means to build weapons in the 12th century? ... what, indeed, happened to the Anasazi, or the Mayans? ...  even the great Egyptian empires were buried under the sand when resources disappeared.

I just wish there was a way to make obstreperous and stubborn fools such as yourself pay for the sins of your blatantly self-interested exercise of power.  For example, every cent for the cost of our invasion and occupation of Iraq ought to be carried by those who favored and supported it (in inverse proportion to the amount of time they continued to do so, of course).  For those who supported the war but kept their children from serving, I would think some forced labor somewhere by those children would also be fitting (appropriately, repairing mosques and schools in Baghdad comes to mind).  As to me paying $7 a gallon for gasoline ... it's not even necessary if Chevron would get off its rear end and quit holding the entire country hostage; natural gas already exists in sufficient quantities to fill the void (and is a whole lot cleaner and a whole lot cheaper).

But hey ... when was the last time that a corporate evil-empire abandoned a cash cow because something that would work just as well and was cheaper was available?

shays
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Part 4:    The Democratic Party is in favor of taking from those who earn and giving to those who do not for endless and elusive "fairness" reasons. This creates incentives for people to remain dependent on government, discourages self reliance and punishes those who work/play by the rules and do well. It is amusing to listen to Democrats arguing it is somehow "unfair" that someone worked and did well while others couldn't be bothered to do the same. It's just more of the "economic exploitation" nonsense - while supposedly defending "choice" or "freedom", if you did well you must have prevented someone else from doing so or cheated in the process and should be made an example of.

The wealthiest 5% of the population pay about 40% of ALL taxes in this country (they do pay a disproportionately greater share of income taxes) ... but they also earn closer to 60% of all the income.  This seems to me to point out that they are NOT paying their fair share.  Democrats are not in favor of increasing the taxes on wage earners and working-class families, but instead on the leeches and speculators who don't do squat except "think" how to spend more money and avoid how to be socially responsible.  Dwight Eisenhower ... a Republican ... taxed millionaires more than 90% of their income, which encouraged them to reinvest their income rather than gamble it away in speculative efforts to increase their hoards.  We did okay, as a countrty, back in those days.

There will always be an indigent, underclass that is dependent on someone or something for sustenance ... be it handouts, handups, private charity, public employment, welfare, or conscription into the military (or to fight in the Colosseum to satisfy the bloodlust of the more affluent elements of society).  "Compassionate conservatives" seem to think there is something that those shifty and "lazy" (a code word for "minority", by the way) underclass should be doing to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps ... but then in the same breath talk about "free trade" and the "right" of global corporate owners to ship all the jobs overseas for foreign members of the underclass to fill. 

What's your solution of choice?  Bet you can't say, with a straight face, that they should go out and find a job ... because Republicans make sure there AREN'T ANY jobs!  Then again, today's news tells us that (because of federal stimulus finally making it to the local level) unemployment is lower for the first time in over a year!

 

KragJorgensen1896
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In a free society with a capitalist system there will always be those that have less than others. That is not going to change but the left wants it to. The responsibility lays with the individual to use what skills they have in the marketplace (or improve them) for employment. For those who make the effort rewards are possible but not everyone will have exactly the same as someone else.

What is shifty and lazy is a major political party deemphasizing the role of the individual and replacing it with the idea/model that you have no responsibility to try, when someone else tries and succeeds another must have failed in the process and you are being "conned".  When was the last time someone became a chemical engineer, carpenter, dentist, auto mechanic, etc. by complaining that someone already was one, doing nothing about it but expecting a similar outcome/result for so called "fairness" reasons? The "solution" is higher taxes as a punishment on those who have worked/succeeded to "level the playing field". Level what? Oh, that's right. Someone has more than someone else and we just can't have that now, can we?

Let me guess, it's "socially responsible" to demand/expect/feel entitled to a cut of your neighbor's small business income (already being taxed)? No, it's socially responsible for you to start your own small business if you want a cut.

Your blanket reference (code) of "leeches" and "speculators" for those financially off regardless of circumstances and efforts (higher levels of education, business owners, sound investments, etc.) and being subjected to high tax burdens (70% or more) just emphasizes my point. This is still a free country. You think these people "had it coming"/need to be made an example of. And how do you know that people who earned this kind of money "didn't do squat"? 

You never had to find a job before? What do you want to replace that approach with? Should someone be forced to find a job for you? We don't make steam locomotives anymore. Should we get rid of diesels just so we can rehire the employees who made the steam powered models for "fairness" reasons?

Obama's stimulus (that needed to be passed right away) was supposed to keep unemployment at 8% or below. And you're celebrating a 9.4% rate?

 

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

We do not live in a free society with a capitalist economy.  There is no free-market in this country, except perhaps at the local level, and then only if it can find a niche market not already occupied by a corporate entity.  Corporations own this country.  They set the rules.  They determine where things will be made, what will be made, how much of it will be made, who will make it, and how much the market will bear for it.  They manipulate the market on commodities, they manipulate the market on future commodities.  They manipulate (and control) the electoral process to make sure business friendly types make the decisions that affect them.  They own (and control) the media that dictates how we perceive the world (mainly by controlling what it is that we hear about the world, and the way that the information is presented).  Don't give me any fairy-tale about "capitalism" and "free-markets" ... Ronald Reagan tossed aside any restrictions that still remained.

Even the so-called "left" is part and parcel of this arrangement, don't you know.  For corporate stooges to seize the tide and still provide an aura of "freedom" and "independence", there has to be a modicum of discussion and an appearance of different points of view.  What you call "the left" is simply that side of the corporate system that attempts to placate the masses.  The so-called left takes just as many campaign contributions from the corporate world as their rivals (not opponents) on the right.  The left stalls progressive legislation almost as effectively as a stone-wall right wing does, and is just as skilled at casting votes to water down or defeat truly progressive ideas as their right wing adversaries.  The ONLY people on the left who don't suck up to the corporations are labeled as "mavericks" or "idealists", and are as lonely as Ron Paul on the right (and the "maverick" label attached to John McCain was a propaganda move, not something based in reality ... he knew what side of the Savings and Loan scandal buttered his bread).

The rest of your message is so filled with make-believe charges and chimerical criticisms as to be almost fiction.  You mix your metaphors without any apparent effort self-check their fallacies.  The importance of personal responsibility is a deeply held value of the left ... right up there with social responsibility.  I do not know of a single person (in his right mind, anyway) who has ever said they deserved to be an engineer just because some people already were engineers, and that was the fair thing to do.  Nor do I know of a single person who has called for higher taxes so unqualified people could be made into engineers as a product of "fairness".  What I do know (and suspect is the basis for your confusion) is that many very smart and potentially very productive young people are denied access to the opportunity to become an engineer simply because they do not have enough money to buy the advantages that others purchased.  Nothing that you have said in any of our correspondence suggests that you have the capacity or the compassion to understand this concept; I doubt if you have ever met a poor kid with an IQ of 180 who dropped out of school to support his family, while some silver-spooned preppy with an IQ of 120 skated along at Party Central and used family connections as his affirmative action.

Let me guess, it's "socially responsible" to demand/expect/feel entitled to a cut of your neighbor's small business income (already being taxed)? No, it's socially responsible for you to start your own small business if you want a cut.

There is no social responsibility involved in this fictitious scenario, drawn broad brush from your fertile imagination.  It is socially responsible for the successful small business owner to contribute to the community that made his or her success possible.  Yes, some of that responsibility is paid for in the form of taxes ... the small business owner undoubtedly uses the publicly built roads to at least commute to-and-from work, but more than likely to move product for sale or raw materials for assemblage; the small business owner undoubtedly utilizes several public utilities (or private utilities regulated by public agencies because they serve the public good) ... such as water, garbage, police, fire, and even phone/internet and electrical systems in his business; the small business owner owes the orderly functioning of his or her business to the field of fair-play created by the licensing process and the legal system that protects him or her from scalawags ... and so on.  But there are other responsibilities that a small business owner has within the community.  A socially responsible owner hires locally, contributes to good deeds and projects, keeps the storefront neat and presentable, possibly sponsors a little league or soccer team.  Those things have absolutely nothing to do with giving half (or all) your earnings to poor people ... which just goes to show how whacked out your criticisms are.

My reference to "leeches" is specifically aimed at the insurance industry (especially the health insurance industry) ... which makes sense in a forum about (wait for it ... health care reform!).  And they ARE leeches.  They suck 30% to 40% of all premiums paid to them into their own tight little greedy clutches.  They deny health care to anyone for whom they might have to pay out (just as they go out of their way to deny automobile coverage to people who file legitimate claims, or home-owners claims to people who have legitimate claims for settlements regarding home ownership), and seek to disqualify those who DO qualify.  It is about the sickest system on the planet, made all the more sick because it theoretically has to do with helping people deal with issues related to their health.

I do not know a single person who is paying 70% of their income in taxes.  I wouldn't mind, though, as you well know.  Seventy percent of $5 million leaves me with $1.5 million.  I cannot feel sorry for someone with $1.5 million per year.

I do not follow your final two paragraphs, which seem to have been thrown in along with the kitchen sink.  People need work.  Work gives people dignity, it gives their life meaning, and it should provide them with an income that enables them to do more than just "survive".  There is LOTS of work to be done in this country, but your rich buddies refuse to invest in it (and what they DO invest in, they feel they are entitled to a lion's share of the wealth created by that labor simply because they were privileged enough to have spare change lying around).  Instead, they take the $1.8 trillion given to them as a "tax break" and spend it on speculative, money-making gambles OR invest it in foreign businesses.  Then they have the gall to wonder why American workers don't like them very much, have little sympathy for their "problems" of having so much money, and in time might just take what they have rather than just ask politely for a raise (or a job).

"Barack Obama's money" (as you stupidly call it), is coming in several phases.  The first bit came in the form of modest tax cuts for the middle-class, averaging about $1000 per family.  The second blast of money was designed to bail out failing state budgets -- to prevent schools from closing, from firing too many teachers and public health care providers or police.  Now, the spigots are beginning to open up for workers.  As originally planned (if you are smart enough to go back and read the law and the announcements made to accompany it), the end of this summer was to be the beginning of money going out for highway construction jobs, mass transit improvements, forest thinning, weatherization efforts, small business loans (yep ... even the capitalist class benefits), water management, school construction or deferred maintenance projects and a much longer list.  These shovel ready, short-term projects were and are the targets of the first wave ... bigger, longer and more lasting projects (bridges, dams, electronic and electrical grids, etc.) ... ones that will hire more workers for longer times ... require more planning, they require environmental impact reports that were not finished, and are not as easy to get off the ground.  More importantly ... and in contrast to the administrative style of George the Cowboy Bush, oversight is not invented at the last minute (if at all), but was built into the system.  This, too, slowed down the process of getting money out.

As to the depth and strength of this recession.  Hopeful minds thought shoring up the financial industry (and then a key cornerstone of our manufacturing base) would slow down the recession, and it wouldn't be as huge as it actually is.  George W. Bush and 30 years of Republican misrule have essentially bankrupt the United States ... we have gone from being the largest importer of raw materials and exporter of finished goods, and the largest lender in the world (when Reagan came to power) to being the largest importer of finished goods and borrower of capital.  Republicans have enacted policies that allowed companies to ship jobs overseas and pretend they were still "American" companies (and to avoid ALL tax liabilities), have essentially dug a whole the size of the Grand Canyon in which to bury the national debt whose interest alone is greater than the entire debt owed when Reagan took office, have overseen the absolute decline in yearly income for Americans earning less than $100K a year, and on and on and on.  The ONLY entity with any cash to invest in rebuilding this country is the United States government (and only then because it can print it, and at least recoup some of it by taxing its citizens for helping them out).  Your capitalist class has not done much to stave off the problem, and absolutely NOTHING to solve it.

Start digging buddy.

KragJorgensen1896
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Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363

<The rest of your message is so filled with make-believe charges and chimerical criticisms as to be almost fiction.  You mix your metaphors without any apparent effort self-check their fallacies.  The importance of personal responsibility is a deeply held value of the left ... right up there with social responsibility.  I do not know of a single person (in his right mind, anyway) who has ever said they deserved to be an engineer just because some people already were engineers, and that was the fair thing to do.  Nor do I know of a single person who has called for higher taxes so unqualified people could be made into engineers as a product of "fairness".  What I do know (and suspect is the basis for your confusion) is that many very smart and potentially very productive young people are denied access to the opportunity to become an engineer simply because they do not have enough money to buy the advantages that others purchased.>

No, I'm just refreshing your memory about you chiding another poster on this board who questioned the wisdom of unionized assembly line workers making about $80,000 per year for performing a single, repetitive task when other workers would do the job for much less. Your response - why shouldn't they make that much? After all the owners of the business make so much more and it was "fair" to have a more "balanced" distribution of wages? Remember?

I've lost count of how many times left wing politicians/activists calling for "economic justice" paint the business owner as an "ogre" for not caving in to demands for higher wages/benefits from unions so the grocery clerk/assembly line worker/etc. can afford a car, house, etc. Never mind that this could make the business go out of business and there would be no jobs.

What isn't discussed is the worker's responsibility to improve their skills so they can command higher wages instead of being bitter for just not "getting more". That is personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is saving money so you have some when you get older, not demanding "retirement security" funding or politicians promising a "baby bond" courtesy of the taxpayers.

 

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

I would like to see a direct reference to the post you are summarizing ... while it is in my nature to defend the right of unionized workers to make $80,000K for operating a machine along an assembly-line (though I do not believe there are very many assembly-line workers making such a salary), and while I also believe that such salaries (if they existed) could easily be justified because they are proportional to those made by executives (though the proportion is mind-bogglingly disproportional:  something akin to 300:1, if I am not mistaken), and furthermore while I would not be surprised (at all) to read where I said that I think the world would be a better place when a company recognizes that EVERYONE contributes to the product or service of the company (which is why, until at least the 1980s, companies operated on the assumption that treating employees well produced better and more loyal employees, who in turn worked harder and even contributed innovative ideas to make the work place a better place ... which was before executives started thinking that their privileged positions gave them the right to grossly multiply the cut from profits they deserved) ... I suspect you have taken my words out of context, which is the type of cheap trick for which you have developed a reputation.

I've lost count of how many times left wing politicians/activists calling for "economic justice" paint the business owner as an "ogre" for not caving in to demands for higher wages/benefits from unions so the grocery clerk/assembly line worker/etc. can afford a car, house, etc. Never mind that this could make the business go out of business and there would be no jobs.

And here is a perfect example of taking something out of context and making a phony argument from the whole cloth.  "Ogres" are selfish.  Some business owners are selfish.  Some business owners assume that the workers they employ are "lucky" to have the job they have and the salary or wages it provides ... that they are interchangeable and should be graciously thankful for the beneficence of their boss.  They view demands for a larger cut of the profits their labor produces as greed and avarice from a group who should just be grateful.  If workers organize -- which they have an inalienable right to do -- and demand more from their employer, then that leads to a situation that can go two ways:  it can lead to honest and open negotiation in which the costs and benefits to both parties are honestly weighed and considered, or it can lead to one or both of the parties becoming intransigent in their demands.  Yes, a union would be stupid to make demands of an employer that would drive the employer out of business if enacted.  But an employer is stupid if he (or his governing board) decides that one part of the company should get a disproportionately larger share of the income than those whose labor produces it.

It is considerations like this that constitute "fairness" ... it certainly is not "fair" (socially, morally, politically, economically) for one side or one group to reap disproportionate benefit from the effort of the entire group; and I would think that understanding and definition of "fair" (limited though it may be) applies to most situations you want to name.

What isn't discussed is the worker's responsibility to improve their skills so they can command higher wages instead of being bitter for just not "getting more". That is personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is saving money so you have some when you get older, not demanding "retirement security" funding or politicians promising a "baby bond" courtesy of the taxpayers.

These things are discussed all the time, left and right.  To your amazement, undoubtedly, I tend to agree with what you say, but with qualifications.  Workers ARE responsible for improving their skills and knowledge so they command higher wages and/or qualify for promotions or better jobs.  However, we have come to accept such ideas as "cost of living raises" (so that a worker, doing the same type of work, can keep up with inflation), "seniority" (workers are given credit for the experience that working the same job provides), and other salary and wage adjustments that have nothing to do with "improvement" (per se).  Then there is the issue of how a person who works eight (or ten-) hour shifts finds the time to "improve their skills".  Sure, many make huge personal sacrifices ... but both employers and employee's unions have also taken the bull by the horns and provided training programs and incentives for eligible or interested workers.

And yes, it is admirable for people to save for old age (or for those special things they want).  Though it may be better if a person is individually responsible for saving money throughout their life, it is always much easier said than done, and for a whole lot of reasons.  Do we turn our backs on those who cannot (or do not)?  I say no ... and so do most Americans.  During the thirties (and subsequently), we agreed as a nation to offer help to people in old age (or to those disabled), and not require (or necessarily expect) them to be able to provide for themselves once they passed productive age.  Perhaps arbitrarily, we set that age at 65 (though I don't hear too many people, other than those hopeless Dickens' admirers who were much happier in 19th century slave-labor camps, complain too much about Social Security eligibility ages), but I do not see anything wrong with a person who has led a productive life cashing in on the contribution they made (along with their various employers) to Social Security.  Nor do I see anything wrong in individual workers negotiating for a retirement package from their employer, or for groups of workers collectively bargaining for the same.  I bet you don't think there is anything wrong with executives negotiating for severance or retirement benefits, either.  So these are POSITIVE solutions to otherwise negative outcomes, from which EVERYONE benefits.

Oh, and guess who led the country in shaping old-age and disabled workers benefits?  It most certainly wasn't anyone with a conservative social or economic philosophy.

KragJorgensen1896
KragJorgensen1896's picture

Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363

<There is no social responsibility involved in this fictitious scenario, drawn broad brush from your fertile imagination.  It is socially responsible for the successful small business owner to contribute to the community that made his or her success possible.  Yes, some of that responsibility is paid for in the form of taxes ... the small business owner undoubtedly uses the publicly built roads to at least commute to-and-from work, but more than likely to move product for sale or raw materials for assemblage; the small business owner undoubtedly utilizes several public utilities (or private utilities regulated by public agencies because they serve the public good) ... such as water, garbage, police, fire, and even phone/internet and electrical systems in his business; the small business owner owes the orderly functioning of his or her business to the field of fair-play created by the licensing process and the legal system that protects him or her from scalawags ... and so on.  But there are other responsibilities that a small business owner has within the community.  A socially responsible owner hires locally, contributes to good deeds and projects, keeps the storefront neat and presentable, possibly sponsors a little league or soccer team.  Those things have absolutely nothing to do with giving half (or all) your earnings to poor people ... which just goes to show how whacked out your criticisms are.>

The issue here is the tax burden you want to impose on others and the reasoning behind it - obviously a punishment given the rate and based on elusive "responsibility" obligations.

What's "whacked out" is that despite business owners creating jobs for others/keeping the economy going/already paying taxes (that you appear to ignore) you want a punitive tax rate imposed on them (70% of their earnings or more) because you think it's "fair" or "responsible". It's just another example of the left's idea of "preserving freedom" or supporting "choice". As long as you agree with the "choice" they want - giving a big chunk of it to the government.

Thanks for clarifying that a confiscatory tax rate in a supposedly free nation with a market economy is just a "contribution" to the community for the "greater good". And you,of course, know exactly what that "greater good" is and will define it/implement it for the rest of us.

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

The issue here is the tax burden you want to impose on others and the reasoning behind it - obviously a punishment given the rate and based on elusive "responsibility" obligations.

No, the issue is the social responsibility that a company or a corporation has towards the community in which it operates.  Somewhere beginning in the late 1860s and 1870s, we lost sight of the rules of incorporation, and forgot that a business arose ... and was licensed ... to meet specific and clearly identified community needs (although, when run well and efficiently, was also able to make a profit).  Today, businesses (and the larger they are, the more likely they possess this attitude in spades) operate as if the community owes them, rather than the other way around.

No one likes to pay taxes.  Period.  In that sense, we could view all taxes as "confiscatory" or as a "punishment" with some validity.  But how does that take us anywhere useful or productive?  We don't even all use government services equally (and some of us don't use some of them at all), but we still contribute to them because that's the way government works.  I suppose we could itemize the services with which we agree and are willing to contribute on our income tax returns, but it's ever so much easier to just assess a standard tax on everyone and then divvy up the revenue towards all the different expenses.  But none of that changes the fact that businesses use a disproportionate share of public services in the process of generating the income on which they live, and so it is imminently "fair" (by anyone's definition of fairness) that they pay more for their access to those services.

But here's a proposal:  every taxpayer (individual citizen and businesses -- large and small) keeps a detailed log of public services that it utilizes, expresses those services as a percentage of income, and then pays that percentage of income for their tax.  For those who cannot keep good records (or for whom the math is daunting), the government issues tables of averages for various types of businesses and uses, and the tables calculate your tax based upon average use.  You get to choose whether you want to itemize or use the tables!

What's "whacked out" is that despite business owners creating jobs for others/keeping the economy going/already paying taxes (that you appear to ignore) you want a punitive tax rate imposed on them (70% of their earnings or more) because you think it's "fair" or "responsible". It's just another example of the left's idea of "preserving freedom" or supporting "choice". As long as you agree with the "choice" they want - giving a big chunk of it to the government.

Yep, business owners create jobs.  Yep, they are an integral part of the economy.  And yep, they pay taxes on their business (or their income from the business).  I do not want a "punitive" tax assessed on them or their business, let alone anything approaching a 70% rate (a figure you continue to bandy about as if it were fact).  In terms of health-care reform (this thread, in case you have forgotten), and the provisions being discussed to finance it, the Congress is alternately proposing a small surcharge on businesses and individuals earning more than $280K ($350K in some versions; $1,000,000 in yet others) and an end to the 3% tax cut given to those earning more than $250K in personal income.  The tax cut, alone, amounts to over $1.8 trillion in lost revenue that would more than cover the ten-year costs for even the Cadillac of health care proposals.

Since people earning that income (and personally benefited from not paying those taxes) also did not invest in American businesses during the same time period (resulting in the 12-18% unemployment rate that has been in effect since at least 2002), your argument that the way they use the money they keep is none of our business holds no water.  So, collecting it in the form of taxes and then using the money to create jobs performs a social responsibility that the wealthiest people in this country have absolved themselves of performing.  It has absolutely nothing to do with "fairness".

Thanks for clarifying that a confiscatory tax rate in a supposedly free nation with a market economy is just a "contribution" to the community for the "greater good". And you,of course, know exactly what that "greater good" is and will define it/implement it for the rest of us

Excuse me, but go back and read laws for incorporation in the period up to the Civil War.  We had much more of a free-market economy back then than we do now, and contributions to the community and the greater good were central to business ethic and organization.  As to defining the "greater good" ... that is not up to me (or you, for that matter); it is up to the community as a whole.

lemetellit
lemetellit's picture

Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 100

it's actually at 16 % and going up faster than  you think. Can someone tell me how anyone that's unemployed pay for their health insurance when they don't even have jobs?? This new Health Reform or whatever their calling it these days, will make everyone have medical insurance, how's that suppose to happen???

I'll tell you how, we the people that have jobs will be paying for them and the illegal alliens too. Wake up people, this is becoming a comminunist country before your very eyes. Pretty soon you'll have to read the Koran and burn your Bibles!!!! if you have one.

But don't worry, these things are going to happen to wake up people and bring them back to God, this country was once blessed by God but I think he's taking his blessings back for what we're doing and what we're becoming, ( an unGodly nation).

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

I am glad that someone from apparently the right side of the aisle recognizes that the Republican Recession of 2007 actually has driven close to 20% of the population out of work (and I think your estimate is way too low ... the official figure is only, of course, 9.4% ... but that does not count people whose unemployment benefits have already expired, those who never earned enough to qualify for unemployment benefits, those who have given up looking for work altogether, or those who have been forced into part time work or work beneath their skills just because nothing else was available).

People who are unemployed ... especially the chronically unemployed ... are eligible for Medicaid (a single-payer system that is quite effective for those who qualify).  Most of the five health reform proposals currently working their way through the legislative process require universal coverage because the larger the pool of insured, the less everyone has to contribute (and the more money in the pool to cover the care that those who need it require).  This is the same logic that drives existing laws requiring home owners to have home owner's insurance, and for car drivers to own automobile insurance.  So, if we can force everyone to purchase privately provided auto and home-owners' insurance, what's wrong with doing the same for people's health.  Most private, for-profit insurance is a scam, anyway!

Your paranoid fears about communism and Islam are just that ... rampant paranoia.  Take your nose out of the propaganda you have been reading and explore the written world of history and philosophy.  Heck, just get yourself a good dictionary so you can clear your foggy definitions.

Finally, this nation has never been blessed by God.  From all that I have read and understood, only the people of Israel have been thusly blessed.  But I will gladly retract my words if you can point to the Scripture that singles this country out and provides us with some special mission.  Similarly, because He never blessed us, He also is taking nothing back.

Sorry lemetellit ... your line of reasoning is exactly the narrow sort of dogma that appeals to people in different parts of the world that we call religious radicals.  Look in the mirror and see the building blocks for a terrorist.

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Thank you!  This is a MARVELOUS post.  I always thought that I was pretty thorough and fact-based in my responses, but this makes me feel like a kindergartner.  I have saved these comments to rebut scripted "protesters" at the next Townhall meeting I attend!

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

I don't know about you, but I am tired of right-wing propagandizers lying about health care proposals for no other reason that to confuse the general public.  In particular, I am tired of people who have built careers leeching off the public (or even defrauding the government) for their own benefit trying to deny me access to an affordable health care plan.  Fatigue with the lies and deception led me to write a letter to my Canadian cousin the other day in order to try to get some facts about health care in Canada.  He wrote back the following (which I paraphrase):

In the 1960s, and faced with similar future problems of escalating costs (and sharing similar health care systems, health care costs, and vital statistics), the two countries chose different paths.  The US chose to provide public coverage for only the elderly and the very old, whereas Canada decided on a universal single-payer system for hospitals and physicians' services.  Today, all Canadians have insurance.  They have no deductibles and no co-pays.  Most of the separate provinces provide additional coverage ... for home care, long-term and assisted living care, pharmaceuticals, and other benefits (though there are usually co-pays associated with them).  On our side of the border, close to 50 million people have no insurance, millions more are underinsured, and health-related bills bankrupt more than one million Americans every single year.

Obviously, a single-payer system would eliminate almost all problems related to coverage in the U.S.  Canada spends about 10% of its GDP on the single-payer system, whereas the U.S. currently is spending 16% (and everyone is not covered, nor are those covered covered equally).  The difference in spending has nothing to do with quality ... and everything to do with overhead.  There are not thousands of actuaries setting premiums and thousands of lawyers denying care.  According to the GAO, Medicare has about an 80% lower administrative cost than does Medicare Advantage (the trillion dollar boondoggle passed under the Republican idea of "reform" ... you know, reform that passes all sorts of unnecessary costs on to the for-profits offering Advantage coverage).  You know, he told me, it even makes sense to realize that providers and suppliers have a harder time defrauding the system when there is only a single payer.

A single-payer system reduces the paper work, and reduces costs arising from duplication of effort (or duplication of unnecessary services).  It also makes it possible to negotiate lower costs.  In Canada, because administrative costs are so much lower, Canadian citizens actually receive more medical care and services for the money that is spent.  They can afford to go to the doctor more often, and they can get more drugs.  While there are, point of fact, less heart surgeries in Canada than in the U.S. ... less Canadians die of heart attacks.  They live more than three years longer than do Americans.  And infant mortality in Canada is 20% lower than in the U.S.

Because funding goes to services (and not to dividends, salaries, bonuses or advertising), more people are served.  The Canadian system is not without its problems (what system is perfect, heh?).  Despite well-publicized cases to the contrary that are exceptions to the rule, most Canadians needing urgent care get it immediately.  They do wait a long time for elective surgeries (which a few of those propagandized stories were really about, by the way), including visits to the family doctor or to specialists.  And chronic disease is not managed well in Canada.  But we don't do any of those things very well in this country, either.  In fact, the GAO reported in April that emergency room wait times have increased over the last few years (on average, it takes 28 minutes in an emergency room), and the wait for mammograms has increased to two to four months.  However, the GAO says this wait-time for a mammogram has nothing to do with facilities or equipment ... rather, it is caused in large part by physician insistence on fee-for-service; an archaic 19th century solution to drive quacks and snakeoil salesmen out of the business.

A single-payer system is the simplest, least expensive, and most broadly applicable approach to universal health care.  However, American democracy runs on money.  The fuel to drive democracy (i.e., the money) is provided by corporations ... in this case, the pharmaceutical and the insurance industries.  Hundreds of billions of dollars are wasted in overhead for these leeches that could otherwise be used to provide basic health care coverage for everyone (and the rich, or those served by employers, can supplement the basic coverage they think they might lose).  We, the retired and under-insured, see all that money being wasted.  Business executives, of course, see bonuses and dividends, not to mention campaign contributions (to buy votes) and advertising (to buy loyalty).

Americans, truly and deeply ignorant of life beyond our borders, are sitting ducks for demagogues and propagandists.  Knee jerk anti-government rhetoric stirs passions rather than educates people about choices.  The media, succubus legislators, and even presidents cry about "socialism" ... knowing full well that it is a word very much in spirit with He Who Cannot Be Named (and has essentially the same effect).  They tell us that Canadian citizens cannot choose their own doctors ( a lie), while conveniently forgetting how many insurance plans severely restrict "in-plan" doctors that are in collusion with the insurance industry.

Unfortunately, very few Americans will ever hear the true story of Canadian, single-payer health care.  Then again, many Americans don't really care too much about the truth.

chewy
chewy's picture

Joined: Nov 2007
Current Posts: 1107

Did you watch Bill Mahrer last friday?  He was busy quoting the large numbers of Americans who don't know who their Senators are and various other simple but important information that people should know for a democracy to work very well.  Real easy stuff. 

It's amazing so many people are uninformed and have not bothered to educate themselves of current events so important to their lives. Especially when such information is so readily available.  We are spending billions trying to bring democracy to the Middle East -  it seems we should have started here.   

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

There's plenty that we are doing in the middle east (and elsewhere) that should have been done here, first.  But enough of that.

I taught for twenty-years in a rural, two-room school.  My kids were the older kids (4-8th grade), but I spent a lot of time with the little ones, too (how can you not when there is only one wall separating the two classes, and we are in such constant contact?).  I knew a good many of those kids before they were born ... literally.  And I educated a lot of their children, too.  Having the same group of kids for five years (in my room) or nine (the school) allowed me to get to know them very well.  The point of this is to say that I know an awful lot about kids and learning, and earned it the hard way (one kid at a time ... hehehehe).

ALL kids are innately curious.  Not all kids are curious about the same things ... what turns one kid's crank puts another to sleep.  Not all kids bring the same hardware and software with them to school; they're all different, they will process information and activities differently, they will deal with success and failure differently.  It doesn't take much to kill that curiosity.  When mistakes get made, they can often be undone with just a little bit of effort ... but a lot of kids carry the hurt and frustration and disappointment (and fear, too) around with them in different ways.  Everyone sees the expression of hurt, frustration, disappointment and fear differently, and often reads different meaning into those looks.  But almost universally, if something isn't done to undo the damage done, the damage becomes permanent.

Some kids like repetition and predictability.  Others fall asleep at the first repeat.  One wants to inculcate basic facts and skills early on, but one can make them impossible to grasp with even a wrong look.  It's not an easy job, being a teacher, and there is no magic bullet, one-size-fits-all approach to any subject or any kid.  But the key is to make them feel connected ... to see connections (between events and their own lives), to understand value and importance and relevance, and to feel confident that they can succeed.  No one learns anything unless they see a reason and a connection to something important in their own lives.  Finding those roots is essential.

Geography is inherently interesting and fun.  So is history and science ... "How did I get here?" and "Why did THAT happen?" are two common questions that kids of all ages ask.  Some find that true in math, as well (but math is a skill and a language to describe other realities, so it is much harder to learn ... and understand ... than most people believe).  It is essential to sustain curiosity.  Without it, learning becomes rote.  Unless you experience it, it is all second-hand and perfunctory.

RealAmerica
RealAmerica's picture

Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

WHAT main stream media?

A few pictures are worth a thousand words. Sheila Lee (D,TX) plant unmasked at 'town hall' propaganda meeting.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2315916/posts

Scroll down to the pictures.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

(1) As you may recall, you will not find me to be a friend of the mainstream media.  The term I prefer using to describe it is the corporate media (and, those familiar with my litany of posts, know how I feel about corporations), which goes a long way towards explaining its sterility, blandness, and profit-generating bottom line.  It is, at best, a form of entertainment that varies widely and wildly in content, truthfulness, relevance, connectivity, and actual "news".  At its worst, it is a major distraction, a tool for the dissemination of unchallenged and unquestioned propaganda, and a vehicle through which the dominant elements of our culture are transmitted.  Usually, there are grains of truth to be found (occasionally a true gem), but it is so cluttered with analysis, speculation, wild innuendo, personality, ego, and disjointed atomistic "reports" (as if everything that happens has absolutely no connection to anything else reported, even the very next story) as to be largely useless.

(2) "Joe the Plumber" was no "regular citizen", as your freerepublic blog article describes him.  Nor did he pose a "challenging, heartfelt" question to Barack Obama.  He was a plant, plain and simple.  His connections to Republican politics, the McCain campaign, and old Savings and Loan scandal evil-doers have been long documented.  He was an idiot, and a person who misrepresented himself (and his "business") on numerous occasions.  The corporate media did not "skewer" him until long after the independent media dug just a little bit and found these things out ... things the corporate media, if it had any semblance of social responsibility, could easily have discovered for itself.  When they did get around to "skewering" him, he deserved it.

(3) Democrats are politicians, and many politicians are not above dirty tricks ... or putting plants in the audience who perform all sorts of services (ask the softball question, pose as someone they are not, raise an embarrassing issue, etc.).  If the woman described in this article was, indeed, a plant, then shame on Representative Jackson-Lee.  I can't help but notice, however, that this "article" does not name the woman in question, or provide any evidence that what it says about her is true.  That is not a very credible accusation, in my mind.  This does not mean it is not true ... only that anyone who believes that "a woman" (unnamed), at "a" townhall meeting in "Texas" (unidentified in terms of date or location), claiming to be a pediatrician but really a graduate student at "some" university (unnamed) where Jackson-Lee's husband is an official (and theoretically knows every student) must be awful gullible and probably willing to accept all sorts of whoppers (like pulling the plug on grandma, like cutting Medicare services to seniors, like "socialized" medicine).

(4) Two retired health care CEOs testified in Congress on Wednesday that the health care industry regularly uses plants at public meetings as one part of its lobbying effort.  What I really like are all those independent, freedom-loving conservative Americans who are duped and manipulated by private, for-profit corporations to do their bidding and they think they are exercising some patriotic duty by being stooges of a system that is enslaving them.

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

New Health Care Proposal:

(Phoenix, API):  In a move that may signal the White House is waving a White Flag over health care reform and its public option, a draft memo has been leaked to API News Services by anonymous key insiders whose identity cannot be revealed because they are not authorized to discuss such material and admit to not having direct access to the leaked proposal on which the memo is based.  Nevertheless, they attest to its authenticity and their sources are impeccable.  The memo directs unnamed spokespersons, all speechwriters, and anyone else who might have anything to do with comments made in regard to health care reform to stop making reference to a "public option" in all public and even private utterances.  This directive is assumed to apply to everyone associated with the White House, the Congress, all Federal agencies and departments, though others may be affected.

Insiders tell us the memo signals a shift in White House strategy that will manifest itself within the next two weeks.  They assert that the six thousand page America's Affordable Health Choice Act of 2009 will be withdrawn from consideration, and in its place a proposal of a single paragraph will be submitted.  Though the wording is still being refined, reputable sources claim it will simply state that anyone who wants Medicare coverage will be allowed to purchase it.

Reaction outside Mesa's Dobson High School was mixed.  Two separate crowds, each numbering about 500, had gathered in anticipation of a town hall meeting President Obama was scheduled to deliver.

It wasn't hard to tell the crowds, separated by a line of off-duty police officers, apart.  On one side of the front lawn people carried signs that read "Don't tread on me", "Spend all you want, I'll pick up the tab", "I'll keep my freedom, you keep the change", "B.O. smells, and so does socialism", "Free fertility drugs, now!" and "Fund bikini wax".  Mingling in this crowd were about a dozen well-armed men, brandishing pistols, AR-15s, hunting rifles, and one bazooka.  One of them, who identified himself as a sales manager from Phoenix, said "I'm out here to exercise my First and Second Amendment rights, while I still have them.  Everything Obama stands for is the antithesis of what this country is founded on.  He's Marxist, a fascist."

On the other side of the lawn, signs were abundantly in display as well.  "Disruption does not equal discussion", "Health care for all Americans", and "The only option for all is a public option", "I don't work, I don't pay taxes, and I want everything for free!"

When told about the leaked memo, sixty-seven year old Thomas Curmudgeon, a life-long resident of Mesa, didn't like it.  "Keep the government out of Medicare," he growled.  On the other side of the lawn, Suzanne Candylicker ... standing alongside her teenage daughter Brahnee ... was a little more receptive, though admitted to being confused by the change in tactics.  "Well, we've like made all these signs, you know, and we have taken like all this time to get dressed up to come down here and like support the President, you know, and to like show all those stupid old people that listen to like Rush and Fox and all them right wing talk show hosts, and all, and they think our President is like a communist or something that they are ... well, that they are like wrong, you know.  And then you tell me that it's like all for nothing, you know, because he's going to like change the whole thing.  It's sort of like frustrating, you know.  But I like the President, and all that stuff, and I know it's change I can like believe in, and all, so I guess I'm happy about it.  You know."  Brahnee just nodded, but with an iPod cord reaching up from her tank top into her long brown hair, it was hard to tell if she was agreeing with her mom, or just enjoying the music.

 

RealAmerica
RealAmerica's picture

Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

ObamaCare - Part 2?

I admit I didn't read the 1000 page stimulus bill. But according to Devyvy Kidd, buried in there is the first part of ObamaCare, which includes funding $1.1B for the Federal Coordinating Council For Comparative Effectiveness Research. This 15-member board has already been appointed! So despite what arguments shays may try to lull you to sleep with, you can bet with money in hand the DemocRATS will piecemeal this un-Constitutional abomination of freedom into multiple, inoculous bills. In the past they have slid things like an increase of H1-b visas into omnibus spending bills right before a recess, so that would be the first place to watch. There there are hundreds of bills every year that do things like name post offices, for example. THAT is where the pieces of this bill will be relocated.

If you're finally sensing that something is terribly wrong, maybe its the precepts of the U.S. Constititution [bleep]ing your consciousness. After all, the Supreme Court has already found it against the Constitution for the feds to regulate health care. To find good references to this argument, do a search on Devvy Kidd and go to her website - Debby's Project. Toward the bottom you will find a spot for NewsWithViews. Click on that, and the 2nd article down is about ObamCare and has the court citation and other references.

If you're not mad, you're not awake.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Don't need to, because your previous references to this website has already told me everything I need to know about IT.  Lunacy, paranoia, and mad invention of things under the bed that are supposed to frighten us all.

But I can say that, yes ... in the stimulus bill was a provision creating a panel designed to research the use and effectiveness of various drugs, procedures, and practices ... and to file a written report on its findings.  For the FIRST time in this country's history, a central organization comprised of professionals is going to look to see what works in all the various health care options that are practiced ... to put all findings together in a single place ... and to then allow both providers (and later, consumers) to compare.  Hence the title, COMPARATIVE EFFECTIVENESS RESEARCH.

As an aside, you may recall that amongst the various elements of the Democratic platform during the last national election (an election in which Barack Obama won 53% of the popular vote and Democrats, as a hole, won substantive majorities in both Houses of Congress) was a call to modernize and bring up to date medical practice and research ... to do (as this provision in the Stimulus Bill provided) something like putting everything that we know in electronic form, update all medical providers so they have access to that data, and structure the data so we can use empirical information to determine best practices and procedures.  Duh!

RealAmerica
RealAmerica's picture

Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

I'm sorry to see how shays marginizes and belittles the U.S. Constitution in order to avoid the question about the legality of ObamaCare. I wonder if he taught his schoolkids that it's alright to observe the laws of our nation as long as they feel good about them. It's no wonder he doesn't "get" the Tea Parties.

As for the 'lunacy' he presents, I like to remember that people see in others that which they most despise in themselves and wish to avoid. And pretenting the case citation that directly applies to the question doesn't exist is downright childish behavior. From Devvy's site -

"The catalogue of means and actions which might be imposed upon an employer in any business, tending to the satisfaction and comfort of his employees, seems endless. Provision for free medical assistance, nursing, clothing, food, housing, and education of children, and a hundred other matters might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. Can it fairly be said that the power of Congress to regulate interstate commerce extends to the prescription of any or all of these things? It is not apparent that they are really and essentially related solely to the social welfare of the worker and therefore remote from any regulation of commerce as such? We think the answer is plain. These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power”. - Railroad Retirement Board v. Alton Railroad Co, 295 U.S. 330, 55 S. Ct. 758 1935)

Shays does bring to light an interesting tactic of the Obama camp. The concept of a common data structure for electronic medical records seems like a bold new idea. I worked on such a project for Kaiser Permanente a decade ago. I have no idea of it's status now, or if anyone has applied something like the Open Source software model to the project to get it done. So it's a big question whether it's worth breaking the powers conferred by the Constitution to achieve it. And the twisted authors of this idea have conveniently spun the probability of using that same board to determine what contsitutes 'best' practice in order to dictate who lives and who dies under the 'public option' (did YOU read an expiration date on that package? Or when the turnover of the function to the public sector occurs?). THAT is the problem. And the language of the bill hides its long term effect to use tax dollars to leverage to reduce competitive ability of the public sector to continue to offer policies. Eventually (5-10 years) the only one standing is 'the public option'. Oh, and the Congressional health plan.

Onward and upward, shays! Only a few more weeks until the Sheepleherder of the Year award is yours! But you better hurry. It appears that a lot of the sheeple are shaking off the effects of the Kool-aid.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
shays's picture

Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Shays gladly "marginizes" <sic> whackos and conspiracy theorists who have no credibility except in the dark underbelly of rumor and innuendo.  I place no credence in people who throw around titles, selected quotations (taken out of context) from obscure Court cases that they list only by name and dare everyone to be offhandedly knowledgeable about, and who cite references who hide their names and affiliations and in fact form part of a circular coterie of fellow conspiracy kooks.

On the other hand, I do not marginalize the Constitution.  I marginalize those who make phony references to it, and think that their fantasies substitute for true legal dialog.  I do NOT marginalize the Tea Parties ... everyone has a right to express their opinions, whether they have a basis in fact or reality is not material (though it does usually determine whether they have credibility or not).  My criticism of the Tea Parties was in the blatant manipulation of historical fact and the condescending assumption (proven true, unfortunately) that most Americans  were too stupid to distinguish between truth and mythology and would easily associate a historic patriotic act (a protest against elimination of a tax on a multinational corporation) with starkly different current events (reinstatement of a tax on multinational corporations and the people who profit most from them) -- especially the blind patriots who never met a fact they thought they needed to pay attention to.

Yes, I felt compelled to subject myself to the whacky ravings of Devvy Kidd one more time; but only because you challenged me.  She cites, at length, a quotation that she lifted verbatim from a cite she was too stupid to conceal from anyone who actually clicked on her links ... and the Alton case was, indeed, included in a long and rambling screed aimed primarily at Hilary Clinton (16 years ago!).  What Ms. Kidd fails to report is that the Alton case was pretty much overruled just a few years later.

I did a little background checking into Ms. Devvy, and it appears in Part II of this response.

ARRA did, indeed, create a Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research. A fifteen member panel has been appointed, in accordance with the timeline included in ARRA as approved by Congress. The panel is pretty prestigious (even if the scholars and clinicians appointed to it have chosen to use their expertise to provide public service, rather than remain in the private, for-profit sector where they can compete to scrape the very last dollar that poor Americans are still clutching in their bony fingers), and you might want to check them out before you start calling them names.  This panel will work in conjunction with the Departments of Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, and Defense to coordinate comparative effectiveness and related health services research. The Council WILL NOT recommend clinical guidelines for payment, coverage or treatment. The Council will consider the needs of populations served by federal programs and opportunities to build and expand on current investments, priorities and strategies. Most members of the panel, as mentioned above, are clinicians (but I am sure they are secretly liberal activists and communist infiltrators, in Ms. Devvy's view).

The database that they will create does not exist.  I don't care what piece of something like it you may have worked on, it is something that practically every health care provider -- especially primary care providers -- has agreed is essential and necessary; and way past due!

It is interesting that Ms. Devvy includes citations from Elizabeth McCaughey as she tries to refute the Panel's work … you know, the Republican PAID strategist who single-handedly invented the non-existent "death panels" and then made a blithering fool of herself in an extended interview with Jon Stewart on the Daily Show (where she couldn't find the pages to which she was referring, refused to read the actual words in HR 3200 but paraphrased them to say what she claimed they said, and then when Stewart read the actual words attempted to give them meaning(s) they did not have.

Health care reform is coming, and Republicans are rapidly losing the right to have a voice in what it looks like.  That's okay.  They pretty much did what they wanted and said what they wanted when they held majorities.  All we have to do now is convince a few Democrats that we get to do whatever we darn-well please, and it doesn't matter WHAT a Republican has to say!

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Part II:  Is there a conspiracy theory to which Devvy Kidd does not ascribe? She has her eye on Freemasons, that's for sure. She's not too keen on the New World Order (nor am I, except she envisions it as some left-wing purgatory and almost all the folks whom she tells me are in it represent capitalist/corporate statism run wild). The Chinese, of course, are just about to buy America. For a mere $24.95, you can purchase her entire collection of conspiracy theories, along with the "proof". Or, for just a few dollars more, you can join her El Dorado Gold ponzi scheme.

She's known primarily as a tax protester (the 16th Amendment was not legally adopted), but more recently has asserted herself to be a Constitutional expert.  She now can cite Supreme Court cases with the flick of her wrist, pull decontextualized quotations from the most obscure ones imaginable with a simple google search, and explain to all us lay folk just what this all means in terms of Constitutional Law!  She is the most credible of witnesses I could ever imagine explaining to me how this country works!

Here are her Court citings:

Linder v. U.S.: I looked this up (not knowing it off the top of my head), and the first link was to a Wikipedia article.  The passage she quotes is found in the introduction to the Wiki article about this Court case. Reading a little further, and one learns that the decision is now moot, as the Controlled Substance Act has since been enacted giving Congress power to control drugs across state lines through the

U.S. v Anthony (1935): She quotes a generic one-sentence passage that is attributed to three different cases occurring over four separate decades. She lists the titles and case numbers, without comment ... but that's because that is EXACTLY how they are listed and "described" in the link she provided. Thais particular quote is found ¾ of the way through a largely incoherent screed on international treaties (mostly regarding the power of Congress to regulate nothing) and wild references to Court cases (by reference number only). This is the SAME source for her reference to the Linder case (so maybe she didn't copy it from Wiki, she copied it from here, instead … but someone has done the copying, which is why it appears in Wiki and is the way that Wiki works)

Railroad Retirement Board v. Alton Railroad Company: This case ALSO links to the same uncited source. It goes into great length about Alton, a case that ruled the first Social Security Act unconstitutional. This was cause for great glee to greedy conservatives in the 30s, and apparently they still get their rocks off thinking about it.  Unfortunately, Alton was followed by a second Social Security Act that the Court also reviewed, and then upheld (making Alton a curious case of judicial graveyard precedent). But apparently, the author of this particular blog is more interested in explaining how the Court didn't really mean what it said (and still secretly thinks SS is illegal)

What I find most interesting in her choice of references is its hidden and sneaky construction.  When you use the link she provides, you go to a page that contains this blog (which, in turn, does not cite a single source for all of its conclusions and claims).  When you track through it, you find the site is actually an internet service provider called "HiWAYY Internet Services" ... so apparently our prolific little blogger has set up a blog page at this provider.  It turns out the author is Lowell H. "Larry" Becraft, Jr. ... and his site is called the "Dixieland Law Journal" (a front for ultra-conservative "Freedom Movement"). As is typical for these operations, he links her website to his homepage, and vice versa.  That way, you can be in two places at once (when you're really no where at all), and read truly circular arguments.


chewy
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Joined: Nov 2007
Current Posts: 1107

"DemoRats?"    Are you really going to quote a source that refers to democrats in such a manner, and expect sensible conversation in return? 

I'm sure the veracity of your argument has now been proven beyond all doubt.

RealAmerica
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Current Posts: 1158

Physician Perspective

One of the lacking elements and least heard is that of the physicians. They are generally reticent to voice their politics. But once in awhile one steps forward who is acknowledged as speaking for many, and this is one from Atlanta, Ga (Zane F. Pollard, MD).

While the healthcare reform debate has been picking up this summer, the conversation is mostly between politicians and average citizens who do not practice medicine. US doctors and nurses seem to have been left out from this dispute, even though the outcome will influence them, their lives, their practice, and their ability to stay in business, enormously.

Clearly, if the reform is not private practice "friendly" we as a community might lose our best physicians and our economy might weaken as a result of doctors shutting down or going out of business.

Below is an opinion of one of Atlanta's most recognized physicians, Dr. Zane F. Pollard, who works in pediatric ophthalmology for Children's Healthcare of Atlanta at Scottish Rite, Atlanta, GA.

OBAMACARE AND ME

 

I have been sitting quietly on the sidelines watching all of this national debate on healthcare. It is time for me to bring some clarity to the table by explaining many of the problems from the perspective of a doctor.

First off, the government has involved very few of us physicians in the healthcare debate. While the American Medical Association has come out in favor of the plan, it is vital to remember that the AMA only represents 17% of the American physician workforce.

I have taken care of Medicaid patients for 35 years while representing the only pediatric ophthalmology group left in Atlanta, Georgia that accepts Medicaid. For example, in the past 6 months I have cared for three young children on Medicaid who had corneal ulcers. This is a potentially blinding situation because if the cornea perforates from the infection, almost surely blindness will occur. In all three cases the antibiotic needed for the eradication of the infection was not on the approved Medicaid list. Each time I was told to fax Medicaid for the approval forms, which I did. Within 48 hours the form came back to me which was sent in immediately via fax, and I was told that I would have my answer in 10 days. Of course by then each child would have been blind in the eye.

Each time the request came back denied. All three times I personally provided the antibiotic for each patient which was not on the Medicaid approved list. Get the point -- rationing of care.

Over the past 35 years I have cared for over 1000 children born with congenital cataracts. In older children and in adults the vision is rehabilitated with an intraocular lens. In newborns we use contact lenses which are very expensive. It takes Medicaid over one year to approve a contact lens post cataract surgery. By that time a successful anatomical operation is wasted as the child will be close to blind from a lack of focusing for so long a period of time.

Again, extreme rationing. Solution: I have a foundation here in Atlanta supported 100% by private funds which supplies all of these contact lenses for my Medicaid and illegal immigrants children for free. Again, waiting for the government would be disastrous.

Last week I had a lady bring her child to me. They are Americans but live in Sweden, as the father has a job with a big corporation. The child had the onset of double vision 3 months ago and has been unable to function normally because of this. They are people of means but are waiting 8 months to see the ophthalmologist in Sweden. Then if the child needed surgery they would be put on a 6 month waiting list. She called me and I saw her that day. It turned out that the child had accommodative esotropia (crossing of the eyes treated with glasses that correct for farsightedness) and responded to glasses within 4 days, so no surgery was needed. Again, rationing of care.

Last month I operated on a 70 year old lady with double vision present for 3 years. She responded quite nicely to her surgery and now is symptom free. I also operated on a 69 year old judge with vertical double vision. His surgery went very well and now he is happy as a lark. I have been told -- but of course there is no healthcare bill that has been passed yet -- that these 2 people because of their age would have been denied surgery and just told to wear a patch over one eye to alleviate the symptoms of double vision. Obviously cheaper than surgery.

I spent two year in the US Navy during the Viet Nam war and was well treated by the military. There was tremendous rationing of care and we were told specifically what things the military personnel and their dependents could have and which things they could not have. While I was in Viet Nam, my wife Nancy got sick and got essentially no care at the Naval Hospital in Oakland, California. She went home and went to her family's private internist in Beverly Hills. While it was expensive, she received an immediate work up. Again rationing of care.

For those of you who are over 65, this bill in its present form might be lethal for you. People in England over 59 cannot receive stents for their coronary arteries. The government wants to mimic the British plan. For those of you younger, it will still mean restriction of the care that you and your children receive.

While 99% of physicians went into medicine because of the love of medicine and the challenge of helping our fellow man, economics are still important. My rent goes up 2% each year and the salaries of my employees go up 2% each year. Twenty years ago, ophthalmologists were paid $1800 for a cataract surgery and today $500. This is a 73% decrease in our fees. I do not know of many jobs in America that have seen this sort of lowering of fees.

But there is more to the story than just the lower fees. When I came to Atlanta, there was a well known ophthalmologist that charged $2500 for a cataract surgery as he felt the was the best. He had a terrific reputation and in fact I had my mother's bilateral cataracts operated on by him with a wonderful result. She is now 94 and has 20/20 vision in both eyes. People would pay his $2500 fee.

However, then the government came in and said that any doctor that does Medicare work cannot accept more than the going rate ( now $500) or he or she would be severely fined. This put an end to his charging $2500. The government said it was illegal to accept more than the government-allowed rate. What I am driving at is that those of you well off will not be able to go to the head of the line under this new healthcare plan, just because you have money, as no physician will be willing to go against the law to treat you.

I am a pediatric ophthalmologist and trained for 10 years post-college to become a pediatric ophthalmologist (add two years of my service in the Navy and that comes to 12 years).A neurosurgeon spends 14 years post -college, and if he or she has to do the military that would be 16 years. I am not entitled to make what a neurosurgeon makes, but the new plan calls for all physicians to make the same amount of payment. I assure you that medical students will not go into neurosurgery and we will have a tremendous shortage of neurosurgeons. Already, the top neurosurgeon at my hospital who is in good health and only 52 years old has just quit because he can't stand working with the government anymore. Forty-nine percent of children under the age of 16 in the state of Georgia are on Medicaid, so he felt he just could not stand working with the bureaucracy anymore.

We are being lied to about the uninsured. They are getting care. I operate at least 2 illegal immigrants each month who pay me nothing, and the children's hospital at which I operate charges them nothing also.This is true not only on Atlanta, but of every community in America. The bottom line is that I urge all of you to contact your congresswomen and congressmen and senators to defeat this bill. I promise you that you will not like rationing of your own health.

Furthermore, how can you trust a physician that works under these conditions knowing that he is controlled by the state. I certainly could not trust any doctor that would work under these draconian conditions.

One last thing: with this new healthcare plan there will be a tremendous shortage of physicians. It has been estimated that approximately 5% of the current physician work force will quit under this new system. Also it is estimated that another 5% shortage will occur because of the decreased number of men and women wanting to go into medicine. At the present time the US government has mandated gender equity in admissions to medical schools .That means that for the past 15 years that somewhere between 49 and 51% of each entering class are females. This is true of private schools also, because all private schools receive federal funding.

The average career of a woman in medicine now is only 8-10 years and the average work week for a female in medicine is only 3-4 days. I have now trained 35 fellows in pediatric ophthalmology. Hands down the best was a female that I trained 4 years ago -- she was head and heels above all others I have trained. She now practices only 3 days a week.

 

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

CCKitty
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Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 361

To whatever you said ;) Sorry - I am out in nowhere land - tired and found they have internet in no man's land! LOL

LISTEN UP....the majority of people that are running health care now and making the rules are the very people that don't even provide it. Period.

Quality and access are big issues - can't be done by cutting back near the trenches. So look up high on top of that tree or totem or whatever you want to call it - also Sales and the considerable amount of $ that has been spent to avoid law suits.

I can walk you through a hospital room and every object there has a very expensive story. From the tiles on the floor to the syringe - needle dispenser to the bed (that was sold and the company went belly up and now it is broken - but no one knows how to fix the $20,000 bed).

It is not all about everyone needing healthcare ...we will see how this unfolds. But we also need to cut back on the immense amount of time taken out on court costs and over doing things when one "aberration" occurs.

Hey - do you know why you must be wheeled to your car via wheel chair? All from one case of someone who sued because they fell in the parking lot. I could go on - but I have to get back to my guns and dogs - LOL

RealAmerica
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Current Posts: 1158

 

You mean like the largest settlement ever against a drug company (started by Bush's DOJ) recently announced?

(cut & paste): usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2009/September/09-aag-900.html

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

There go those "competitive", "efficient", "market-place" whiz kids, again.  Isn't it inventive and creative and entrepreneurial to violate so many legal and ethical standards all in one-fell swoop? Doesn't this just go to show the truth in the old adage that the best and the brightest gravitate to the private sector?  Aren't we glad we trust in the law of supply and demand and free-market forces to regulate the marketplace?

And guess what, folks?  Because we still have not granted the largest group of pill buyers in the country to negotiate en masse with the drug companies for better prices, Pfizer/Upjohn will just pass along this $2.3 billion "settlement" to consumers and the very same executives who decided ... behind closed doors, where all corporate executives work their "public good" magic ... to misbrand drugs, sell the misbranded drugs under different labels in dosages that might be dangerous, to illegally promote drugs for purposes they were not approved, and to provide bribes and kickbacks to doctors for prescribing said drugs remain scott free to invent newer and better ways to market their drugs.

And remember, marijuana is still illegal!

My point is that medical malpractice (people falling in parking lots may or may not be malpractice, but leaving bits and pieces of machinery inside bodies most certainly is) still only accounts for about one half of one percent of all health care costs.  Corporate irresponsibility and lawlessness, on the other hand, is simply an expected part of the capitalist system (note that a significant number of medical practitioners ... who also appear to not have been subjected to legal scrutiny ... also form a part of the seedy underbelly of BigHealthCare).  It took four years for the DOJ to win this settlement, and many people on this list seek LESS government oversight.

Break up the corporations.  Anything too big to fail must be Sherman-ed

RealAmerica
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shays wrote '... medical malpractice ... still only accounts for about one half of one percent of all health care costs ...'

Does this include the cost of insurance paid by all the physicians and hospitals to protect themselves from malpractice awards, or only the actual awards themselves. In other words, what percent of insurance premiums do the actual awards represent? 90%? 15%? This is the second time you have brought up this statistic.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

CCKitty
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Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 361

My point is that medical malpractice (people falling in parking lots may or may not be malpractice, but leaving bits and pieces of machinery inside bodies most certainly is) still only accounts for about one half of one percent of all health care costs.

Thank you. I agreed about lawsuits - but the problem is with how the lawsuits are problem solved After settlement.

PS - I made a parking lot and wheelchair comment sometime ago and not sure if you are referring to this - but the cost related to the "plan of action" for this was tremendous. It effected response timeand increased injuries and hospital fines. They have made significant imporvements in the past few years but it is a good example of how something small can be ridiculously blown up.

Example: You are to be discharged via wheelchair to your car. Even if you can walk. So - more wheelchairs are needed ($$) - ooops! People are bigger now so we need to purchase extra wide too (more$$). No place for the wheelchair so we put them in the halls folded up and staff trip on them and get injured ($$). The State came in and wrote the hospital up for violating the fire codes with cluttered halls of wheelchairs ($$). You now need to find places to hide them or tuck them away (no room and cannot block the halls). So now - you have a person in the Emergency room waiting to be admitted to the hospital - but why so long? You are told "the room is not ready - patient is still in room". What you find out is that no one can find where Jack left or hid the wheelchair and the patient has been waiting for hours. Even though the patient is very capable of walking to the car. So now - because of the delay, people are rushing once the room is ready and make mistakes or get injured.

This is what I meant ;)

Ohso
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Joined: Feb 2004
Current Posts: 2436

A MESSAGE FROM THE AMERICAN SENIORS ASSOCIATION

(Forward by Dick Morris) Dear Subscriber,

I have gotten madder and madder at the AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) for claiming to represent America's elderly when, in fact, it is just a vendor seeking to get revenue under the Obama health care plan. It was just such a conflict of interest that impelled the AARP to endorse Bush's prescription drug plan. The AARP has morphed from a group that speaks for seniors to one that tries to make money from them.

My wife, Eileen, and I were thrilled to learn of a rival to the AARP that has sprung up -- The American Seniors Association (ASA) -- which opposes Obamacare and is willing to be an independent, disinterested voice speaking up for the elderly. We reached out to Stuart Barton, its President, and suggested that we send a letter from him to our readers (this is not a paid mailing; we are sending it around because we deeply believe in fashioning an alternative to AARP).

We both suggest that you do as we are doing -- join ASA -- as a way of showing AARP that they do not speak for America's seniors. Obama's proposals represent a wholesale transfer of medical services away from the elderly and will force government rationing and denials of care for the very old and very ill. We need to fight against them and that is what ASA is doing and AARP is not!

The letter from ASA's President, Stuart Barton, is below.

Thanks,

Dick Morris
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dear DickMorrisReports Subscriber,

The American Seniors Association (ASA) invites any members of the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) to mail us your torn AARP card in order to receive a 2-year-for-1-year ASA membership.

Indeed, anyone of any age can become an ASA member -- especially since young people, baby boomers, seniors, and just about all Americans are now under assault by various Obama healthcare proposals and by the sell-out AARP leadership.

ASA is fighting congressional healthcare proposals that could cost perhaps $1.8 trillion or more over the next 10 years, to be accompanied by cuts in Medicare of $500 billion. ASA opposes a government-run plan that increase taxes and limit doctor-patient choice. We object to one House bill that would actually force individuals or their employers who do not have approved health insurance plans to pay a fine. Furthermore, none of these congressional proposals have a provision that people enjoying healthcare benefits must have their citizenship and legal residency status verified by all 50 states. That opens the door for citizen taxpayers to be gouged for the healthcare coverage of possibly 15-20 million illegal aliens!

Please visit our website at americanseniors.org and consider joining our important crusade. We are for targeted healthcare reforms, but Obamacare and a dismantling of our private enterprise system is not the cure! Also check out the rich variety of membership benefits that ASA provides.

With kindest regards,

Stuart Barton

President, American Seniors Association

RealAmerica
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Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

 

I found this comment on the FreeRepublic site. It sums up the agenda of the loopy left quite nicely.

30 million uninsured.

900 Billion dollars.

That’s $30,000 per uninsured.

How about opening health insurance competition across state lines and give every uninsured a $5000 check to buy health insurance with.

That’s $150,000,000,000 or 84% savings.

Problem solved. Cheap.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Try buying insurance for $5000.

That's like providing a schooling voucher of $5000 to every parent so they can enroll their kid in a private school of their choice.  Nice-sounding, but how is that going to cover the actual cost?

Oh, and while speaking of schools ... if Republicans favor the government giving vouchers (of some designated amount) to parents to pick their own school ... including the so-called public option of enrolling in a publicly funded school, why are they so opposed to the government giving every person medical vouchers (of some designated amount) so they can pick their own coverage ... including the sol-called public option of enrolling in a publicly funded health care program?

RealAmerica
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Current Posts: 1158

 

Can't tell you. Not a Republicrat or Democan.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

I see ... so you have no position regarding school vouchers?  You are too occupied inventing issues about democratic candidates to explore or learn about real ones?

RealAmerica
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Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

 

I don't care to read about school vouchers in a topic about health care.

Obama, Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi, Miller -
Selling Out America's Middle Class - CHEAP!

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

I see ... why don't you just pull the cap down further over your eyes in order to better shut out the facts.  You are the one who proposed a solution to health care reform that is parallel to proposals made to reform the perceived problems in public education.  I simply held up a mirror ... isn't providing vouchers that attach money to kids so their parents can select the school they want similar in principal to providing a health voucher to the uninsured so they can select a health care plan they want?  In theory, if one works, the other should work; conversely, if one has problems, then the other might have problems, as well.

But then, I guess in the world of cutting-and-pasting the ideas of others, it IS dangerous (and a bit frightening) to walk out of your comfort zone or to see the various bits and pieces of the world as all being a part of the same fabric, rather than unique and discrete bits of fact that must be addressed separately.  It's certainly cleaner that way.  But then, that also means you cannot learn from other related human endeavors.

Unless, of course, it is expedient to violate this rule when it serves your purposes.  As is being demonstrated by all the Iraq invasion supporters who suddenly have discovered that enacting legislation without providing for a means to pay for it might be dangerous.

RealAmerica
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Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158

Time 2 Change the Subject -

I guess that means you were caught in your own lies?

ObamaCare will cost taxpayers. Already allocated in budget.

ObamaCare will cover illegal aliens. Already included in the numbers.

Expands the size of government. Already included in the ARRA.

No tort reform - a demonstrated reason for the current high cost of healthcare.

Isn't that enough to be prudentially suspicious of everything else in the bill?

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

The reason you won't take up the question is that you are afraid of getting caught up in your own hypocritical lying.  So that is now a given, and shall be mentioned whenever appropriate.

As to the ongoing policy of lying:

• ObamaCare will cost taxpayers. Already allocated in budget. The proposed 2010 budget (also still a work in progress) sets aside money to cover many of the provisions outlined in last night's speech (research on best practices, technological innovations and networking amongst providers to improve service, and so on).  In that sense, yes, some of the costs for the president's health care proposals are already in the budget.  You are not going to find too many medical providers who find fault with those programs.

As to health care reform, itself, you are correct ... it is not free and it will cost.  It will cost more now than it would have if enacted anytime in the last thirty years, and the primary reason nothing has been done for thirty years is because of Republican opposition to taking care of Americans.  For twelve of those years, Republicans had control of both Houses of Congress and the White House and did NOTHING to address the issue of health care except try to privatize Medicare (a topic you will not discuss, because it is connected to similar efforts to privatize public education), and then to pass a "reform" that costs seniors thousands of dollars in out-of-pocket expenses and provides rich subsidies to private, for-profit insurance companies.  So far, three of the four health care proposals that have made it out of committee include deficit spending over the next decade.  One (Wyden) has been rated by the same CBO as revenue neutral.  The Senate is still drafting.  None have passed, all are still open to revision.  The president has said he will not sign any legislation that adds to the deficit.  We'll see.  Perhaps he will just rescind the 3% 2001 tax cuts, and presto-chango, all of his proposals are paid for!  Better yet, he will restore the 3% tax cut on those making between $350,000 and a million, then add 1% more for each two or three million more of income.

ObamaCare will cover illegal aliens. Already included in the numbers. According to every fact check organization out there, this is a lie.

Expands the size of government. Already included in the ARRA.  Government has been expanding since the days of Reagan.  Get used to it.  I do not see anyone adopting an anarcho-syndicalist model any time soon, least of all you.

No tort reform - a demonstrated reason for the current high cost of healthcare. Tort reform adds 1/2 of 1% to the cost of health care each year.  Sorry, but people need to be protected from crummy doctors or careless medical practices.  I think most people agree reasonable caps can be placed on awards, and Obama proposes that.  More importantly, let's find a way to practice wellness and deal with ways to keep people healthy or prevent disease in the first place, let's train doctors to work in teams that address the whole body and simple things like diet, exercise, stress reduction, and the like.  Let's force food processors to stop poisoning us because it is "cheaper" for them to do so.  Let's reward doctors who keep people from becoming ill and stop paying them for individual services rendered.  Better yet, let's put them all on a really great salary and then offer those rewards for excellent practice.  "Tort" reform will quickly become a thing of the past.

RealAmerica
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Current Posts: 1158

HR 3200 does not, in fact, mandate coverage for illegal aliens. That allows Obama to say what he said. But Obama is also aware that such a claim needs an enforcement mechanism.

The House Ways & Means Committee rejected an amendment that would have helped ensure illegal aliens would not receive taxpayer-funded health care benefits.

The amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV), would have required the government to verify that enrollees in the "public plan" and applicants for "affordability credits" are not illegal aliens. Eligibility verification would have been determined by using existing databases - the Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) system.

As The Plain Dealer reported on Aug 21, 2009, "Income and Eligibility Verification System, (is) already used by states for social service eligibility."

Every Democrat on the Ways and Means Committee voted against the Heller Amendment. Obama and his supporters can say that illegals are not covered, but they strongly opposed setting up the enforcement mechanism to make this a reality.

This is EXACTLY what Chappaquiddic Ted did with the amnesty program of 1986. He gutted all enforcement, and 30 years later, here we are with 10% of Mexico's population within our borders. Even now hospitals are 'prohibited' from determining citizenship status for emergency care. So how if the Exchange Commissioner in charge of instituting enforcement prohibiting illega aliens from participating, JUST HOW DO YOU SUPPOSE HE WILL GO ABOUT DOING THAT? We just settled a court case started in Bush's term regarding using eVerify for federal contracts and sub-contractors.

And not one of your 'fact checks' mentioned the new numbers of uninsured. Why? It's one of those inconvenient truth moments.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

You guys just can't HELP but tell lies.  I thought living under an semi-ignorant, anti-intellectual president with a majority in Congress to do his bidding and Darth Vader secretly running the shop was the nadir of American politics ... but I actually think the hell we are living through right now, with the resurgent McCarthy witch-hunts and the non-stop lying overwhelming the news cycle is far far worse.

Look bub ... in my response to your purposely vague (and inaccurate) summary of the AP "Fact Check" report, I said the following:

(7) "There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage."  The AP points out that Obama is using new data to derive this new figure (in the past, he has said there are 46 million without insurance).  The AP says he uses this new data (from the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured) to avoid criticism about groups that are difficult to pin down regarding why they do not have insurance.  I agree that the numbers (like a lot of statistics) are dodgy and difficult to verify.  AP scored this one sort of questionable.  I agree, but also know that there are a lot of people who do not have insurance, and that the number is increasing, not getting smaller (so attaching a hard number to it is deceptive and pretty meaningless).

Somehow, that seems to pretty directly address your asinine claim that "not one of your 'fact checks' mentioned the new numbers of uninsured. Why? It's one of those inconvenient truth moments."

It also doesn't sugar-coat the Obama claim (though, unlike you, I can see two sides to every picture).

I am going to repeat what I said before.  In plain English, in one single sentence, HR 3200 says

    Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

Sometimes simplicity is too deep for ignorant fools like yourself.  Can people break this law?  Of course.  But, for the sake of 30,000,000 ... 26,000,000 ... even 12,000,000 citizens who do not have health care, you are going to mince words because a couple of hundred Mexican women might get a free mammogram?  You, sir, are the lowest of the low.

 

RealAmerica
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Hey, Sheepleherder -

I know you take us for idiots, but tell me exactly how it works when an illegal alien spawns a child on U.S. soil and files a tax credit for it. Remember, you don't even have to have an income to receive '... Federal payments for affordability credits' in such a case.

And you still failed to show the various components of the Prez' new numbers, because that would show that only the group of young adults not wanting insurance was removed from his original number. AND YES, HIS ORIGINAL NUMBER INCLUDED ILLEGAL ALIENS.

You spew a lot of words that bore people to death; I guess you hope when they fall over in a stupor they'll fall to the left ...

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

I am done with your lies.  Lord knows I have tried ...

I gave up a long time ago trying to offer counter-arguments to your blathering hate-filled gibberish, hoping your mind was open enough that it would at least once in a while question the arrogant certitude that anything those foul-minded jackals on the right passed on to you contained even kernels of "truth", encrusted as they are in bejeweled feces.  Your mind is as open to question, however, as are the Vaults of Hades.  For quite some time, I have continued in this fruitless pursuit hoping there were others out there reading this exchange who were open to opposing points of view and willing to at least think about the evidence.  Occasionally, they have entered the discussion to acknowledge appreciation for what I was trying to do, and that gave me hope.

But even such simple gestures of gratitude are no longer sufficient.  I have too much going on in my life to waste it any longer with you.  I am just going to have to trust that the only people paying attention to you any more are like-minded simpletons, robots of the right with marching orders to drive America to bankruptcy and to enshrine our plutocratic aristocracy.  Good luck to you.

As final evidence of the total bankruptcy of your "movement", and all the hate that it encompasses, let me simply refer you to the Rush Limbaugh Radio Hour of September 11, 2009.  Let all the thousands of Americans who dropped everything they were doing and who literally sprinted to downtown New York on that date in 2001 to help out and volunteer to help the people who most needed it, let all the millions of Americans whose hearts bled on that day and who reached out to the people of New York, let all the people all around the world who joined with us as one, listen to Rush talk about how Barack Obama ... in commemorating the day and living up to his duties as defined by the Edward Kennedy Serve America Act (signed into law on April 21, 2009) by calling on Americans to dedicate themselves to a day of service in honor of those harmed or killed by the dastardly attack ... has turned commemoration of that date into a call for us all to enslave ourselves to the state.

Disgusting

chewy
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Current Posts: 1107

Shays, arguing with real is like a heart felt discussion with Clayton or OHSO. There is no discussion.  He is locked tight into his ideology and can not see or feel anything else.  For him, there is no compromise or truth - other than his. 

Like most people he resists change, but change is part of life.  It will happen with or without him.  Real seems to have no compassion for other people trapped in life's miserable circumstances.  It's all about me.

"It's all about me."   You know, our Country seems to be less of a nation, than a nation of individuals who demand it's rewards and to hell with everyone else.  Real is the iconic example.  And we are less of a nation because of it. 

Save your words for others.    

RealAmerica
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chewy wrote '... Real seems to have no compassion for other people trapped in life's miserable circumstances. It's all about me. ...'

How many times have I recommended people watch [search words: immigration gumballs] on YouTube? When rational people see the demonstration of humanity's ever-expanding population and earth's rather finite resources, they come to the conclusion that we either learn to control our population, or expect to do with less. My personal choice is to learn to control our population and conserve our resources for our children, our future. I'm guessing Chewy is all for expanding the population because it feels good, and expect fewer people trapped in lifes' miserable circumstances, because, well,  that would be nice. So let's go along with Obama's massive redistribution of wealth to the poor, because, like, it's a righteous thing to do, dude.

And in one respect, that is true. As a famous religious figure stated - it it easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to gain entrance to Heaven. But forcing charity from others by law really isn't going to get you points when you need them the most. It has to come from your own heart as a voluntary act.

And Chewy, you have no idea how much energy or resourcse I give to persons who have made the right choices, planned for the future, and gotten run over by the wheel of fortune anyway. So making personal statements about me regarding my charity puts you at my stupid (or at least childish) end of the spectrum. And I have little energy or sympathy for the grasshoppers like yourself who fiddle all summer while the ants plan ahead and work for the coming winter.

As for chewy's seeming patriotic musing at the end, well, really doesn't make much sense. I wonder why he doesn't wonder why Obama and his Congress are putting so much time and energy into this health issue, when 550,000 Americans lost their jobs just last month alone. Doesn't it follow that people who can generate income by working a job are more likely to be able to afford health insurance than if they're unemployed? Shouldn't THAT be the higher priority right now? Many adults would think so.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

chewy
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Joined: Nov 2007
Current Posts: 1107

I've always been an environmentalist. Not a crazy extreme environmentalist, but I prefer effective action to protect the environment. Not lip service, and kicking the problem down the road for someone else to figure out.

No I agree, an ever expanding population is a very real threat to the environment and will inevitably lead to wars, famine and disease in the century ahead of us. I guess the Gulf war over a limited resource (oil) was the first of many others to follow over oil and other limited resources.

"Obama's massive redistribution of wealth."……….. no they should not just hand it over to the poor. The simple fact is, and one you will not agree with, is the RICH do not pay their fair share of taxes. If they did, the national debt would not be in such a crisis mode. That along with some sensible expenditure planning, such as stop pouring our hard earned cash down that black hole called defense appropriations.

Do you think we need all those Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups and the F22's? But instead, shall we invest that money in highways, bridges, education, and energy independence that will put many more people to work including the “poor“. The poor will have to earn their money from the Government.

Your budd is in construction, and probably doesn’t work consistently. Do you think he could benefit from an America investing in America - instead of spending money on America's wars and extravagant war fighting capability?

" you have no idea how much energy or resourcse... "…….. no, I don't . Unfortunately, I am limited to judging you by what you say on this forum - and how you say it. And you don't sound kindly to say the least. And many of your superficial attacks on Obama seem down right sophomoric.

" seeming patriotic musing" we drive SUV's while we have energy crisis, we live in big houses, and must have all things material. We eat energy and pollute the environment with throw away trash ......... the rest of the world thinks we are spoiled children, and there is more of them - than there is of us .......... dude.

KragJorgensen1896
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Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363

<"Obama's massive redistribution of wealth."……….. no they should not just hand it over to the poor. The simple fact is, and one you will not agree with, is the RICH do not pay their fair share of taxes. If they did, the national debt would not be in such a crisis mode. That along with some sensible expenditure planning, such as stop pouring our hard earned cash down that black hole called defense appropriations.>

The simple fact is that the left wing never runs out of things they want to spend taxpayer dollars on "to save the world" or "right the wrongs".

When confronted with shortages they predictably want tax increases rather than understanding that there is not an endless supply of money for them. Someone has to earn it before it can be taxed. Keep demanding tax increases on the "rich" (small business owners) and watch what happens to job creation and the economy.

What we are going to get with Obama and his party is a nationwide version of California's budget problems. Massive spending, no fiscal discipline, a job killing regulatory environment and the predictable accusations of "you're against working families" or "public assistance programs are a right" if someone raises the issue of trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities in programs like Medicare, Social Security or a "public option" in a national health care plan.

shays
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The sad thing is that most of the wrongs that need righted and most things in the world in need of saving are the result of things done by people like you who care only for yourselves and not about issues like social justice, equality, equity, opportunity, and responsibility.  It's easier to dump toxic chemicals or scalding hot water into the nearby river than to clean it or cool it first (or better yet, put it somewhere else), and it is cheaper.  Both add to profits, but not to the well-being of everyone who lives near the water source, or downstream on it.  The same goes for garbage they pump into the air, inject into meat products, add to processed foods, and on and on and on and on.

To be fair, there was a time when ignorance about such practices made them somewhat excusable.  But how long have we known that sulfuric-acid in emissions poisons lakes and eats away at the foundations of buildings downwind?  How long have we known that pollutants in auto and factory emissions make the air dirty and unhealthy to breathe?  How long have we suspected (and now know) that the rapid burning of massive quantities of carbon materials ... materials that took literally MILLIONS of years to put into the ground ... is raising the temperature of Earth's atmosphere?  Ignorance is no longer an excuse.  Nor is it right for those who have greatly profited from decades of irresponsible behavior to pass along ALL the costs to consumers for cleaning up their messes (consumers have clearly benefitted, as well, and should bear SOME of the costs).

I don't really give a rat's patootey how about how expensive it will be ... if your roof is leaking, I suppose you can pretend it's not an issue, or you can cut corners to have it repaired; most prudent people, however, do what has to be done to fix the problem before it leads to even worse (and more expensive) problems down the road.

The Obama administration is stuck between a rock and a hard place.  Democrats, despite their tax-and-spend reputation, have actually done a pretty good job ... historically ... of balancing budgets and spending within their means.  They also have asked for, and usually received, permission to tax at a higher rate than Republicans.  Republican administrations ... at least since Reagan ... are the ones who spend way beyond their means and cut taxes at the same time!  Talk about massive irresponsibility.  So Obama talks about reigning in spending, of balancing the budget.  If history is any indication, I believe he will go the extra mile and try to make it happen.  But to get there, he has to dig us out of a massive deficit first.  Not much gets said of the $1.2 trillion deficit in GW Bush's last year, but we all know about the collapse of the financial industry, the mortgage business, the insurance companies (especially those who were allowed, through deregulation, to get into the financial and the housing markets) and the economy in general.

There is no way that cutting taxes even more and cutting spending would have stopped the crash.  Most agree the crash would have been far worse without the government bailouts and the stimulus spending that is just now starting to take effect (remember, jobs NEVER recovered after the 2001 recession, and worker income actually declined).  But it costs money to do those things ... just as it costs money to fund a couple of wars and bailout Halliburton and Blackwater from their financial escapades.

As to fiscal discipline, I see plenty more just in the last three months than at any time between 2001 and 2009.  How many times did the President warn the Congress that his programs (Iraq, Afghanistan, secret prisons, illegal wiretapping, etc.) could not add to the deficit, otherwise he would not sign the legislation.  How many times did Republicans even WHISPER words related to fiscal responsibility?

Finally, health care IS a right.  It says so in the Preamble to the Constitution, which most people that I respect regard as sort of the mission statement for the Constitution.  Better to spend money on roads, schools, and good health than on exotic weapons or unnecessary foreign occupations, if you ask me.

chewy
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Joined: Nov 2007
Current Posts: 1107

Tax and spend democrats, or borrow and spend Bush Republicans; which is the greater evil?

Obama has promised fiscal restraint. I see no reason to doubt that just because he is a democrat. And before you say bailouts and stimulus package ... guess what, they seem to be working.

There was some expenditures that are controversial and questionable. But the "total" effort seems to have stopped the economic freefall we were in. And there wasn't much time to design a perfect recovery effort - time was of the essence.

Many economists are saying we are coming out of the recession. Many companies are seeing improved balance sheets. Unemployment is bad, but it apparently always lags a recovering economy.

And if the rich are taxed appropriately they will do just fine. They won't have to give up there exclusive lifestyles in the Hamptons and at Vail.

Business owners will continue to create meaningful jobs in their quest to improve profits. If they have increased costs it will be passed along to their customers, just as they always have.

shays
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I think I am going to take a short break, can some jams and pickles, salsa and specially formulated spaghetti sauce (all with produce and sausages made from the fruit of our labor and in our small garden), and then see about going back to work for about three years ... thanks to George W., in particular, and the Republican Party, in general, this is not the best time in the world to be looking for gainful employment; thank goodness Dems took the bull by the horns and pumped money back into the economy instead of into an endless war (against terrorists, against drug lords, against radical Islamicists, against any people in the rest of the world who dare demand that they be allowed to decide ... for themselves ... who should run their country, and how) and into the the military-industrial-complex (publicly funded AND mercenary).

I am coming up with some new strategies for addressing the narrow-minded, hate-filled posters who think they dominate these halls, as well.  Occassionally, I may support some of you who are trying to engage in respectful dialog.  We'll see.  But thanks for your kind words.

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
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Good speech last night.  Since you love citing CNN polls, CNN announced that 68% of those who watched the speech now favor the plan Obama presented.

RealAmerica
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Even one of Obama's cheerleading propaganda units, the AP, came out with a story where they took 7 of Obama's points and 'fact checked' them. 5 turned out to be outright lies, misrepresentation, or omissions. Of the two remaining ones, they gave him credit for 'not available to illegal aliens' because the House bill has a single statement to that effect. As demonstrated in prior posts, Congress has already either killed in committee or on the floor amendments that would specifically enforce the prevention of providing healthcare to illegal aliens. And there is still the clause about providing care for 'international visitors', although I believe that is specific to emergency room care only. (And I don't have the time to dig it up right now.)

But yeah, you're right. As long as he has TOTUS Obama can be a mesmerizing speaker. Hitler had the same quality, and didn't need a teleprompter. So the two men are definitely not in the same class.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
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The 7 "facts" checked by AP include:

(1) "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future. Period."  The AP dismisses this claim as questionable, citing CBO estimates of current plans.  They may be correct, but you also have to admit that what they are dealing with are proposals and possibilities, not anything that has been done.  There are at least four plans in the House that have been introduced (not one has had a hearing or a debate), and none so far in the Senate.  One of the four in the House (Wyden) the CBO HAS identified as revenue neutral.  It is skeptical about the others.  Fair enough.  But the president said he will not sign a bill if it adds money to the deficit.  I think we have to wait and see ... first, whether the Congress adopts a proposal, and then whether the president signs it.  I score this one as a "fact" until we have actionable legislation to talk about.

(2) "Nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have."   The AP says this is true, but then qualifies it, based upon what employers choose to do.  But what employers choose to do is quite different from what the law would require them to do.  And, as of right now, employers are already pretty free to change coverage, change insurers, force employees to contribute different amounts, or drop coverage altogether.  AP scores this as a qualified fact.  I score this one as a "fact".

(3) "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."  The AP backs up this assertion.  All legislation expressly forbids non-citizens from receiving medical coverage.  Currently, emergency treatment is covered by Medicaid funds ... so this one exception is something in existing law that must be changed if you are to be satisfied.  AP scores this as an indisputable fact.  I score this one as a "fact".

(4) "Don't pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut. ... That will never happen on my watch. I will protect Medicare."   The AP gives this one a "draw" ... it is possible that cuts to subsidies paid to private insurers under Medicare Advantage and elimination of waste (generally accepted as significant) will produce the $500 billion savings Obama claims ... it is also possible that private insurers will do something to balance their losses under Medicare Advantage subsidies, costing as many as 25% of Medicare recipients a little more money.  Personally, this is the fallout from the corrupt and duplicitous "reform" provided to Medicare by Republicans, and Medicare Advantage should be eliminated altogether in its current form ... perhaps that is the mechanics behind closed doors, as well.  The jury is out on this one (but if not a fact, only a small, though significant percentage of Medicare recipients will be affected). AP qualifies this one.   I score this one as "mostly fact".

(5) Requiring insurance companies to cover preventive care like mammograms and colonoscopies "makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives."  The AP, correctly, points out that preventive care costs money, no matter how you dice it.  It is correct.  Under current reimbursement practices, such services would be "add-on", "pay-for-service" costs.  However, there are many people arguing to change the way that doctors are reimbursed ... not just reform what we pay for (or who is covered), but also how we provide the service.  If preventive care is part of the overall service that is paid for, and doctors are rewarded for keeping patients health instead of ordering tests, then the costs will go down.  Since the latter perspective is somewhat visionary, and in the current environment "vision" is not going to get too many votes, I think the chances of making such a major change in health-care PRACTICE will have to wait for a later go-around.  AP scores this as "dodgy".  I score this one "mostly wishful thinking".

(6) "If you lose your job or change your job, you will be able to get coverage. If you strike out on your own and start a small business, you will be able to get coverage."  This is a no-brainer.  If everyone is required to obtain insurance, as he said in the speech, then everyone will have coverage. AP scores it as a fact (if the requirement that everyone must be covered survives).   I score this as a "fact".

(7) "There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage."  The AP points out that Obama is using new data to derive this new figure (in the past, he has said there are 46 million without insurance).  The AP says he uses this new data (from the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured) to avoid criticism about groups that are difficult to pin down regarding why they do not have insurance.  I agree that the numbers (like a lot of statistics) are dodgy and difficult to verify.  AP scored this one sort of questionable.  I agree, but also know that there are a lot of people who do not have insurance, and that the number is increasing, not getting smaller (so attaching a hard number to it is deceptive and pretty meaningless).

Ronald Reagan gave pretty good speeches, and some say was just as demagogic as you claim Barack Obama is.  At least Obama does not have Alzheimers, and is more likely to understand what he is saying.  However, keep in mind that I just get tired of you guys comparing Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler so am responding with a blow I measure to be equally low and insulting.

shays
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Other sources have also conducted fact checks of the Obama speech.  Here's what FactCheck says:

• Obama was correct when he said his plan would not insure illegal immigrants.  HR 3200 expressly forbids giving subsidies to those in the country illegally.  While it is true that the bill does not currently contain an enforcement mechanism, that does not mean the president is a "liar" (more on Joe Wilson, below).

• The president said "no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions".  This is technically true.  Any appropriation for the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) is prohibited by the Hyde Amendment from providing funds for elective abortion.  There is an amendment to the provision regarding the so-called "public option" (Capp-Waxman amendment) that opens a door for the DHHS Secretary to make a determination ... "in the future" ... to allow the people covered under the public option to obtain elective abortions; however, technically when people select the public option, they purchase the premium themselves and therefore government funds are not being used.  Critics have also pointed to the provision in which individuals who cannot afford to purchase private insurance on the Health Insurance Exchange can qualify for "affordability credits" to help them do so.  However, if the plan they purchase covers elective abortion, the government writes a check to the insurance company (not the doctor), and the private insurer pays the doctor (as they do now).  Because many private insurance companies already cover reproductive services (including abortion), this indirect payment simply maintains the status quo, rather than introduce a new element to the discussion.

• The president reasserted that the plan he signs won't add "one dime" to the deficit, but the legislation ... as currently written ... will add hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficit, according to the CBO.  The rub here is that there is no "final" plan (yet), and the president has not yet been asked to sign something that WILL add to the deficit.

• The president overstated the degree of concentration in the insurance industry.  He said that in 34 states, the insurance market is controlled by five or fewer private companies.  However, this is true only for insurance bought by small groups, not the entire insurance market.

• He also said the plan will not require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have.  This is true; there is no requirement in the current legislation to switch.  However, critics point out that many employers WILL switch coverage for millions of workers if they can find a plan that is cheaper.  But then, since that is one of the goals of insurance reform (even amongst Republicans), finding cheaper plans benefits everyone.  Still, the president is telling the truth on this one.

Politifact takes on many of the same assertions:

• While the legislation as currently written expressly forbids illegal immigrants from being covered, they are also pretty mum on the mechanics (though it does lay groundwork for eligibility checks).

• Joe Wilson lied about Obama lying.  While some immigration critics have contended that some illegal immigrants might be able to purchase insurance through the public option in the health insurance exchange, they would be paying full price (because they would receive no "affordability credits") and this, too, would maintain the status quo rather than open a new door.

• Obama claimed his plan incorporated ideas from both sides of the aisle.  While it does (so the statement is "true"), most of the Republican ideas he described are minor.

• The president's claim that there are no "death panels" with the power to kill senior citizens is absolutely true.  Sarah Palin just builds a bigger dunce cap (which doesn't say too much about the people who will follow her down a dark alley).

• Preventive care saves money is not true ... it is expensive and will cost money (unless, as I pointed out in the other message, we change how doctors are reimbursed).

• You will not lose the coverage you now have is absolutely true (at least as currently written).

• The statement that "Switzerland and the Netherlands cover all their citizens using private insurers, and they do so for much less cost" is absolutely true.

Others, of course, like to put words into the mouth of the president, and then discredit what they say he said.  Politifact covers some them, too:

• John Carter (Republican Representative from Texas ... and possibly a secessionist) has said "The Obama Administration's own White House Council of Economic Advisors has estimated 4.7 million Americans will lose their jobs if the health care bill passes."  This is a lie.  The White House has never said any such thing.

• Glenn Beck (obstreperous gadfly) has said Van Jones "is an avowed, self-avowed radical revolutionary communist" (September 1, 2009 ... and a line paraphrased by fellow goonies on this board who salivate when Beck opens his mouth).  There is no question that Van Jones WAS a communist ... and self-avowed, at that.  He became a communist in 1992, after being arrested for protesting the acquittal of the Rodney King beaters.  He even founded ... and admits to having founded ... a socialist collective called Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Moment (STORM).  But is he STILL a communist?  In 2008, he wrote (The Green Collar Economy):  "... we are entering an era during which our very survival will demand invention and innovation on a scale never before seen in the history of human civilization.  Only the business community has the requisite skills, experience, and capital to meet that need.  On that score, neither the government nor the nonprofit and voluntary sectors can compete, not even remotely.  Our success and survival as a species are largely and directly tied to the new eco-entrepreneurs -- and the success and survival of their enterprises.  Since almost all of the eco-technologies are likely to come from the private sector, civic leaders and voters should do all that can be done to help green business leaders succeed.  That means, in large part, electing leaders who will pass bills to aid them.  We cannot realistically proceed without a strong alliance between the best of the business world and everyone else."  This does not sound like Marxism!  So, undoubtedly all you witch-hunters are correct -- Van Jones USED to be a communist (and admits to having been one).  But he is no longer one (unless he is the ultimate mole ... you know, pretending to support capitalists and the private business sector just to sneak in the commie green technology bit ... which is conspiratorial enough to probably appeal to you guys), and it sounds like you are shooting yourselves in the foot; converts from communism to capitalism ought to be just the thing you are looking for!

KragJorgensen1896
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Joined: Aug 2008
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<Glenn Beck (obstreperous gadfly) has said Van Jones "is an avowed, self-avowed radical revolutionary communist" (September 1, 2009 ... and a line paraphrased by fellow goonies on this board who salivate when Beck opens his mouth).  There is no question that Van Jones WAS a communist ... and self-avowed, at that.  He became a communist in 1992, after being arrested for protesting the acquittal of the Rodney King beaters.  He even founded ... and admits to having founded ... a socialist collective called Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Moment (STORM).  But is he STILL a communist?>

Would you hire a self avowed/avowed arsonist if he/she applied for a job as a firefighter? When was the last time you applied for a job where someone's references were not checked before they were hired? There was no one else to choose for an economic advisor? Like maybe someone who had done economic advising for 15-20 years with an established record and didn't happen start a socialistic collective?

Obama was supposed to be the candidate that would "change politics as usual" and "bring people together". So why pick this guy with his radical left wing, out of the mainstream background and racially charged remarks?

<In 2008, he wrote (The Green Collar Economy):  "... we are entering an era during which our very survival will demand invention and innovation on a scale never before seen in the history of human civilization.  Only the business community has the requisite skills, experience, and capital to meet that need.  On that score, neither the government nor the nonprofit and voluntary sectors can compete, not even remotely.  Our success and survival as a species are largely and directly tied to the new eco-entrepreneurs -- and the success and survival of their enterprises.  Since almost all of the eco-technologies are likely to come from the private sector, civic leaders and voters should do all that can be done to help green business leaders succeed.  That means, in large part, electing leaders who will pass bills to aid them.  We cannot realistically proceed without a strong alliance between the best of the business world and everyone else."  This does not sound like Marxism!  So, undoubtedly all you witch-hunters are correct -- Van Jones USED to be a communist (and admits to having been one).  But he is no longer one (unless he is the ultimate mole ... you know, pretending to support capitalists and the private business sector just to sneak in the commie green technology bit ... which is conspiratorial enough to probably appeal to you guys), and it sounds like you are shooting yourselves in the foot; converts from communism to capitalism ought to be just the thing you are looking for!>

The business community may have the skills and entrepreneuers for innovation/invention but why should they be forced by government officials/Obama into developing so called "green" technologies regardless of the cost/disruption/job losses to do so? This is just more big government meddling/left wing nonsense - especially the part about "survival as a species are largely and directly tied to the new eco-entrepreneurs". So we will all cease to exist if solar panels do not get installed on the next factory?

So I guess we can assume those who do not wish to invest in "green" technologies will suffer a punishment as well? Like left wing activists filing endless lawsuits anytime a company gets permission to explore for oil/natural gas in Alaska or the Gulf of Mexico? The cap and trade plan from Obama is an energy rationing and tax scheme to satisfy the far left/environmental movement that doesn't like people using energy period. It's pie in the sky nonsense to expect to replace all the oil and natural gas usage with wind and solar energy sources.

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Joe Wilson is a lying liar who should have his mouth washed out with soap.

I said, in the last message, that I would return to tell you more about Joe Wilson ... but then I visited the PolitiFact website, and my message grew too long.  But I'm not going to let this one rest.  Joe Wilson became a symbol for all the deceit, corruption, stupidity and all efforts by people sharing those characteristics to bully the public by simply shouting louder than everyone else.  There are lots of you out there.  Most of our elected officials fall into this category (and if they can claim innocence on this topic, there are other issues where they are just as guilty), and only a very very few remain pure ... this is why the number one issue facing the country is not health care.  It's not even terrorism.  It's campaign finance reform and how to make our electoral process once again fair; it's about removing the corporate octopus from our lives.

Joe Wilson called the president a liar ("it's a lie") when he said that illegal immigrants will not be covered by his health care plan.  This turns out to be a lie, and the only fringe of truth in it can be found only by squeezing the lemon as dry as possible and finding a couple of seeds that might allow some non-citizens to purchase health care.  But this is not what bothers me about Joe Wilson and his ilk.  Nor is it the rudeness of his outburst ... while alarming because it is becoming the root strategy of anyone in opposition to an idea (on both sides of the aisle), we can all dismiss boorish thugs if we so choose.

No, what alarms me most about Joe Wilson ... and almost all of those who stand in opposition to health care reform (Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats, alike) ... is that the basis for the opposition is paid for by corporate, special interest money.  Sure, Joe Wilson may attract corporate dollars because he takes a hard line supporting their interests, but without their massive campaign donations, he would not be exercising their voice.  Someone else would.  Under the current system, that someone else could be funded by corporate interests that support health reform ... and that would be just as wrong.

What is nasty and sneaky and corrupt about Joe Wilson (and most politicians like him ... including predominantly Democratic Senator Max Baucus) ... besides being a wh*re for the corporate beast ... is that they do not disclose this fact, nor recuse themselves from participation in the discussion because of their obvious conflict of interest.  This is wrong.

Here's some facts to back up my assertions.  Joe Wilson's top five contributors to his 2009-2010 campaign committee (source -- Federal Election Commission):

  • American Hospital Association PAC ($7000)
  • American Speech-Language-Hearing Association PAC ($6000)
  • Credit Union National Association PAC ($5000)
  • Every Republican is Crucial PAC ($5000)
  • Fluor Corp PAC ($5000)

The top five industries contributing to his 2009-2010 campaign committee include:

  • Health Professionals ($19K ... $3500 from individuals; $15,500 from PACs)
  • Leadership PACs ($11,000 ... all from PACs)
  • Lobbyists ($9701 ... all from individual lobbyists)
  • Business Services ($9300 ... $7300 from individuals, $2000 from PACs)
  • Hospitals/Nursing Homes ($9000 ... $2000 from individuals, $7000 from PACs)

Clearly this is a man who speaks for and represents the interests of the health care industry (with a few other supporters thrown in).  Did he tell us this?  Does he tell us this?

 

RealAmerica
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Smear tactics come from people hiding the truth. The truth is Congress voted down amendments specifically stating that illegal aliens would not be eligible for ANY benefits of this bill both on the floor and in committee. The truth is Congress has a single line in the bill regarding illegal aliens receiving benefits, and as Shays points out but conveniently forgets (and he thought Reagan had Alzheimers!), there are multiple versions of the bill out there. Striking a single sentence from the final bill, in light of Congressional actions already, SHOULD BE EXPECTED, NOT DISMISSED!

The fact is that the 30M Obama changed his numbers to of uninsured ONLY ADD UP IF 12M ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE INCLUDED IN THE GROUP.

The fact is that Obama doesn't state that his proposed budget, and accompanying DEFICIT, ALREADY INCLUDES COSTS OF THIS BOONDOGGLE BILL. So, since you won't find his additional costs attached to the bill, but instead in his proposed budget, there is no additional cost. Except to the taxpayers. But that's not a cost because its a deficit, right?

Time to watch Jedi Mind Trick again on YouTube!

Obama, Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi, Miller -
Selling Out America's Middle Class - CHEAP!

RealAmerica

shays
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Sorry bub, you're wrong.

Ohso
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Freedom Federation Supports Heathcare Reform But Opposes Government-run Healthcare that Funds Abortion, Violates Conscience, Rations Care, or Limits Freedom

FreedomFederation.org - Real Hope. Real Change. Real Freedom.

Today some of the largest multiracial, multiethnic, and multigenerational faith-based and policy organizations in the country, representing more than 30 million people, gathered in the Nation’s capital to discuss healthcare reform and to mobilize their constituents regarding this national debate. The groups agreed on the following statement about healthcare.

We believe social justice includes healthcare reform that lowers the cost, increases quality, and expands choice at the greatest convenience, without moving private health decisions from the doctor’s office to Washington bureaucrats. Individual liberties trump government-imposed obligations. We believe that individuals, communities, and doctors in the free market make better health decisions than government mandates. We believe in incentives, not coercion.

We oppose funding for abortion. Abortion is not healthcare.
We support the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death. Life, no matter how young, is not expendable and, no matter how ill or aged, is not to be weighed on a cost-benefit scale. We support conscience laws protecting hospitals and healthcare providers from coerced participation in abortion. We oppose government policies pressuring people to forgo or limit treatment because of age or illness. We oppose rationed healthcare due to age, illness or based on a government agency’s determination of "quality" or "value" of life. President Obama said, "under our plan no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place." However, the House has repeatedly rejected amendments denying funding to abortion. We will hold Congress accountable to the principle of the sanctity of human life and to the President's assurance that no public funds will fund abortion and that conscience laws will remain in place.

We support health insurance that is affordable and portable. We support legal reform to stop frivolous lawsuits that drive up healthcare costs, while affording the injured appropriate compensation. We support portability, allowing people to take their healthcare with them so it is not tied to employment. We support options to purchase health insurance across state lines. We support competition; coverage of pre-existing conditions; wellness care and prevention incentives; tax relief that provides a dollar-for-dollar deduction for every dollar spent on premiums or other medical or prescription costs; and a dollar-for-dollar tax deduction with no limit from gross income for every dollar contributed to nonprofit organizations providing healthcare for free or at reduced cost to the needy.

We support freedom and the dignity of the individual, and thus we oppose federalization of the healthcare industry that would create a maze of bureaucracy which will impede and delay critical care and decrease the quality of healthcare. We oppose a single-payer, government-run insurance program or the so-called public option. It is time to start over with a truly nonpartisan approach to healthcare.

To learn more about the Freedom Federation, go to FreedomFederation.org.

RealAmerica
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MSNBC’s First Read reported last night that the Obama Administration is now saying that illegal immigrants will be specifically prevented from obtaining coverage under the president’s health care proposal. The chage comes on the heels of Rep. Joe Wilson’s (R-SC) “You lie!” outburst during Obama’s health care address to a joint session of Congress on Wednesday. Although the president denied from the rostrum of the House chamber that illegals would be covered by the plan, the Administration thought it necessary to make changes to the existing proposal in order to clarify the issue.

But the bigger story the MSNBC missed with its focus on the Wilson flap is found in the second bullet point sent out by the White House last night. The Obama Administration inadvertently confirmed that the president’s plan will begin a slow take over of the health care system by the federal government. How else could this be interpreted?

“Undocumented immigrants would be able to buy insurance in the non-exchange private market, just as they do today. That market will shrink as the exchange takes hold, but it will still exist and will be subject to reforms such as the bans on pre-existing conditions and caps.”

In other words, as the federal exchange takes hold, plans not complying with the federal government’s standards will start to disappear. Eventually, it won’t make any sense for any company to offer health insurance as the federal requirements will make the business of providing health insurance far too expensive, and the premiums far too expensive for the insured.

The result will be that everyone will wind up with no other “choice” than the so-called public option, just as the Administration has planned all along. It took Wilson “calling out” the president’s “misinformation” and “lies” to finally get the Administration to admit it.

The Exchange is not the public option plan. Think of the Exchange as a farmer’s market where lots of plans get to sell their wares, including the public option plan. It’s absolutely true that all the plans offered under the Exchange have to conform to government-set benefits standards and that this is a bad design feature of the Exchange (in contrast, the Medicare Part D private drug plans have a lot of flexibility in designing their benefits so long as they meet an “actuarial equivalence” test. That means they can set deductibles and copayments at whatever levels they think make sense so long as the plan overall covers X% of expected expenses).

But the point is that both private plans and the public plan would be available through the Exchange. Private plans could continue to be offered outside the Exchange, i.e., “grandfathered” but as soon as a company tries to change the design of these plans, they will have to conform to the same design standards as the plans within the Exchange. Moreover, those eligible for subsidies to purchase coverage can only get these if they buy through the Exchange (i.e., they don’t want someone taking their subsidy and buying a super-cheap plan outside the exchange that turns out to offer little insurance protection).

This is why, over time, the private market outside the Exchange will shrink, but for every plan that “dies” outside the Exchange, presumably a new version of that plan with better benefits will replace it.

So the mere “fact” of a shrinking private market outside the Exchange is no proof, per se, that the public plan is intended to crowd out private coverage. There’s plenty of reasons to think it might, but the administration won’t accept these claims (and indeed, even Congressional Budget Office claims only 12 million will enroll in the public plan). So it’s not correct to think the administration has made an implicit acknowledgment of their devious intent when they openly concede the private market outside the Exchange will shrink.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

RealAmerica
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Ohso found this -

Obama Admits Rep. Wilson Was Right
Date:  9/14/2009  by Bryan Fischer, AFA Director of Issue Analysis

The White House has now conceded that Rep. Joe Wilson was exactly right when he accused President Obama of lying when Mr. Obama denied that illegal aliens would be covered under the government takeover of health care.

Wilson knew that every attempt to deny coverage to “undocumented immigrants” had been voted down by Democrats, and that there was no verification method or enforcement mechanism in place to keep them from getting taxpayer-subsidized health insurance.

Last night, the White House caved,
releasing a statement saying that the administration is now backing a proposal that says, “Verification will be required when purchasing health insurance on the exchange,” and specifically mentions the SAVE program (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) that states currently use to make sure illegals don’t consume taxpayer-funded benefits that are reserved for legal residents.

The bottom line here is that if Rep. Wilson hadn’t “called out” the president, this concession never would have occurred. It turns out that everybody who supports sound immigration policy but who condemned the Congressman – including House Republicans that forced Wilson to apologize publicly - now owes him an apology. Don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Changeling

RealAmerica

RealAmerica
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Pete Stark in Fresno

YouTube video of Rep. Stark in Fresno. Primarily health care; but question posed - why is Congress focused on healthcare when jobs are disappearing?

YouTube.com/watch?v=wUpW6lM958M

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Changeling

RealAmerica

orabo
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its really very nice article. good.

shays
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Current Posts: 1715

Two reports this week (Kaiser Family Foundation on Tuesday, and Families USA on Wednesday) clearly demonstrate the need to overhaul the health insurance industry and to find a way to provide affordable health care for all Americans.  According to the Kaiser Foundation, since 1999 the average premium for family health insurance coverage has increased 131% ($4,824 for single coverage and $13,375 for a family plan).  Meanwhile, Families USA has published a state-by-state report comparing increases in health care premiums to worker income between 1999 and 2009.  In California, for example, family health insurance premiums rose 4.3 times faster than average earnings.  On average, health care premiums for California residents rose 109.2% while median earnings rose only 25.5%.  Similar findings for Oregon show that average family premiums rose from $6654 (1999) to $13,378 (2009), a 101% increase.  In the same period, median income for Oregonians increased from $22,401 to $27,743 (a 24% increase).

Similar findings were reported for all fifty states.

Both reports also detail other sharp price increases for consumers (e.g., co-pays and drug prices), while providing further information about joblessness and loss of insurance coverage.

In other words, the insurance companies continue to raise prices (maintaining profitability and obscene salary benefits to high-ranking executives) while consumers find it harder and harder to meet the costs.

JFW_Pittsburg
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Current Posts: 1

.....those reports validate conservatives' contention that states should allow consumers to purchase health insurance across state lines. The primary reason for the disparate costs in the mentioned states when compared to the average state's cost is the mandatory minimum coverages that those states impose. The majority of consumers don't care to have such extras as fertility treatment. This would also serve to promote realistic competition in the industry. While were at it, the states should also consider revising their medical licensing laws- nurse practitioners and physician assistants should be permitted to further treat patients. As most parents can testify, it doesn't take a full-blown doctor to diagnose an ear ache.

 

shays
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I thought conservatives favored states rights!!!!!

The primary reason that insurance is regulated within states is to better serve the needs of people inside the state.  It also (supposedly) helps prevent monopolistic control ... which is what happened every time incorporation rules were changed to allow interstate operations (check your history ... it wasn't until the Civil War that the power of states to closely regulate and monitor corporations began to slip out of the hands of local control).

But that's conservatives for you ... they believe in states rights until convenient to not do so (insurance now, stealing an election in 2000), they don't believe in "choice" unless its the right to select the weapon of your choice, and they don't believe in "death panels" unless expedient to strip a family of their right to allow a wife and mother to die with dignity and want to the state to make that decision.

And the facts demonstrate only one thing (since each state shows slightly different statistics, but ALL show pretty much the exact same steep increase in health care costs and the absolute stagnation of worker income ... thanks to the very great "economy" of the cut taxes and spend Republican party) ... health care costs have risen between 125-140% in the last decade while income has increase about 1/4 that amount.  And it ain't going to get better if the blood-sucking vampires known as for-profit private insurance continues to exist.  They have had almost 60 years to figure it out ... and while they provide relatively good care for those who can afford to purchase their blood-sucking product, the rest of us are left out in the cold.  Why should they change a formula that produces massive dividends to investors and fabulously wonderful, seven digit incomes to chief executives?  And, since conservatives seem to prefer a system that benefits only the few (and then, on top of that, the wealthiest few the most), it would appear that you guys are elitists to the core!

RealAmerica
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How 'Bout Those Ethics

A health insurance provider was issued a gag order by CMS (an office of the Executive Branch), yet AARP was allowed to dessiminate similiar, but opposing information.

humanevents.com/article.php?id=33681

The insurance provider was stating that it would not be able to offer as many benefits if ObamaCare is passed.

Soetoro - YOU LIE

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

Now here's a couple of lies for you:

(1) Good old Senator Pat Roberts (R-KA), after the Baucus Finance Committee Bill had been on line for four days for his and everyone else's opportunity to examine, and while every Senator on the Committee had the power to mark up the bill with all the corrections, additions, deletions their little heart's desired DEMANDED that they postpone the markup process an additional 72 hours so that "those the health providers PAY to keep track of these things" would have enough time to offer their input (i.e.:  tell him what to put in so it benefited them!).  These are the same guys who actually did NOT read the FISA bill or the USA Patriot Act when they were in power but the Pres told them to pass it pretty darn pronto ... but now are willing to openly confess that they are merely pimps to their corporate masters.  Obviously, Sen. Roberts needs to be retired, because he cannot act unless those who have bought and paid for his service write for him what he himself is supposed to be doing!

(2) Rep Eric Cantor (R-VA) ... Republican Whip of all things ... showed us two days ago just how badly opponents of health care reform are lying about their motives.  Now this is man who raises a lot of money, and an awful lot of it comes from private, for-profit cancer research facilities in his state.  But when a woman stood up at a townhall meeting and told the tale of her best friend who is suffering from stomach cancer and cannot get health insurance to cover her medical expenses, the Congressman showed his "compassionate" side ... she can wait for a government subsidy (even though he is opposed to government-controlled medical practice) or she can beg for charity.  There you go folks ... those who HAVE health insurance and are living the good life want don't want anyone else to get it, especially if it's going to cost them a few red cents to help those less fortunate than themselves

And that's what this whole debate (not just the health care debate, but the whole shooting match) is about:  those who have "made it" during Reaganomics don't want to share ANY of it with the 90% to 95% who haven't made it.  And they scream about their "right" to keep whatever it is that they have acquired (regardless of the fact that, even though perhaps acquired honestly ... though they also controlled the process that defined what was "legal").  What a sick bunch of twisted and perverted people live in this country under the delusion that they are "good Americans"

Incidentally, Barack Obama has absolutely zero to do with whatever it is that CMS does ... so YOU exaggerate to state that he "lies".

 

 

RealAmerica
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CMS is part of the Dept. of Health and Human Services under Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. She is a member of Obama's cabinet. She is a pusher of Obamacare.

And while shays is pointing his finger in one direction, your wallet is being picked from another -

Senate Cloaks Obamacare
by  Ernest Istook
09/24/2009

President Obama has consistently refused to put his details into legislative language, and now the U.S. Senate is doing the same thing.

Rather than respecting public demands for transparency, they’re figuratively spitting in the public’s face.
You can’t read the bill because they refuse to put it in writing.  And you’d better not oppose it because the government will try to muzzle you.

The “Baucus bill” is being rushed through the Senate based on an outline provided by Finance Committee Chairman Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT).  The 564 amendments being considered are no better.

It’s like a jumbled pile of notes stuffed into a suggestion box.  Only after Senators are asked to approve the bill in committee -- this week -- would congressional staff be asked to write it all out in full -- expected to be at least 1,500 pages.  (The outline is 200 pages.)

What’s the rush?  Liberal supporters of health care reform saw the negative public reaction when the House bill was posted on the Internet just before Congress’ summer recess.  Now they want to hide the gory details until just before a Senate vote is called on the new version.

Remember the town hall in Philadelphia with Sen. Arlen Specter (D, PA) and HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius?  She told angry citizens, “The Senate bill isn't written so don't boo the senator for not reading a bill that isn't written.”  So why are she, President Obama, Sen. Specter, Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) supporting phantom legislation?

It’s bad enough not to read a bill first.  It’s far worse not to put it in writing so everyone has a chance to read it.  We should not do an extreme makeover of one-sixth of America’s economy based on fuzzy thoughts not put into writing and examined in detail, with plenty of time to do so.

Only one Democrat, Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D, AR) supported an effort to make the bill written out and publicly available for at least 72 hours before any committee vote.  All Republican Senators on the committee supported that effort.  But it was voted down, 11-12, thanks to votes by:

Sen. Max Baucus (D, WY)
Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D, NM)
Sen. Maria Cantwell (D, WA)
Sen. Tom Carper (D, DE)
Sen. Kent Conrad (D, ND)
Sen. John Kerry (D, MA)
Sen. Robert Menendez (D, NJ)
Sen. Bill Nelson (D, FL)
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV)
Sen. Charles Schumer (D, NY)
Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D, MI)
Sen. Ron Wyden (D, OR)

Missing in action is the Senate Majority Leader, Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) who has not stepped up to support the public’s right to know.  Instead, he’s pushing to rush the bill to the Senate floor next week, furthering undercutting any chance for people even to see the details, much less understand them.

Remember the infamous statement of Rep. John Conyers (D-MI), “What good is reading the bill if it’s a thousand pages and you don’t have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?”

Keeping Americans in the dark is not enough for the Obama Administration, however.  ABC reported that the Department of Health and Human Services has sent a letter telling insurance companies to stop ‘misleading’ and ‘confusing’ mailings, saying, quote, “We are instructing you to immediately discontinue all such mailings and remove any related materials from your websites.”

Humana Insurance Company sent a mailing to customers in the Medicare Advantage Program, warning that under the healthcare reform bills, “millions of seniors and disabled individuals could lose many important benefits and services.’”  

The plan is simple, bold and outrageous:  Keep America in the dark and muzzle those who dare to speak up.  Leftwing lunacy has become leftwing repression.


Ernest Istook calls himself a "recovering Congressman" from Oklahoma. He is now a Distinguished Fellow at The Heritage Foundation and chairs the National Advisory Board for Save Our Secret Ballot, SOSballot.org.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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No, the time for [bleep]-footing Republicans to get the heck out of the way.  The ONLY time Republicans gave ANY time for legislation to be "considered" before being pushed through in the last eight years was when the vote was kept open on Medicare Part D (so-called "reform" ... but really nothing more than another major subsidy to Big Pharma and Big Insurance) until three in the morning so three Republican Congressman could be "convinced" to change their vote from "no" to "yes".

There is NO integrity in this discussion.  It is ALL pure BS ... and it is all being puppeteered by for-profit jackals and leeches, their paid performers in the Congress (on both sides of the aisle), and supported by all those who aren't willing to give an inch so 40-year old recently unemployed women cannot have stomach tumors removed:  "those kind" of people can either look for "charity" or sit and die (for whatever sicko reason you want to give)

THAT'S the REAL message behind REAL "America"

RealAmerica
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If we lose 40% of our physicians who can't afford to practice under the new Obamanomics of Obamacare, shays' friend (imaginary?) won't be a whole lot better off anyway. And if she finds that, unemployed, she still can't afford insurance, but has assets like a house, the new Obamacare will have the IRS assist her by attaching her checking account so she CAN afford insurance to treat her cancer. But without money for food, she'll probably lose her home and starve to death, anyway. Thankfully Obama has considered this and has death counseling paid for as part of his plan.

Shays is so silly sometimes ....

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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(1) She is not "my" friend.  The woman to whom I refer stood up at a townhall meeting in Virginia ... in the district of Representative Eric Cantor, the Republican Whip in the House of Representatives ... and introduced herself as the best friend of a woman -- a Republican, incidentally -- who had worked all her life, owned her own home, raised two children and had been laid off in the recent economic crisis (losing her employer provided health insurance in the process).  Two weeks ago, according to the woman talking with Representative Cantor (again, one of the key leaders of the Republican Party and its Congressional delegation), she was diagnosed with tumors on the stomach that were growing and needed removal.  What, the woman asked the compassionate and honorable Mr. Cantor, should her friend do without health care insurance, and what should people in her place in the future do it the Congress does not immediately provide low-income or uninsured people some form of medical protection or coverage?  And Eric Cantor, that palm-squeezing fund-raiser who spends most of his time catering to the pimps of Big Pharma and Big Insurance and has become an outspoken critic of ANY plan that has so far been put forward (but of course, has no plan of his own), replied, in the wheedling, snotty, superior voice of his that she should either avail herself of public assistance, or find a nice charity that will cover her expenses.  He might as well have said what he really meant, because the meaning is amply clear for all to guess:  she might as well just wait and die (because she is not a part of the privileged elite who can afford to have health care).

Oh wait ... this means the Republicans DO have a plan -- they will sit as Death Panels by denying medical coverage to all but the best connected in the country!

Everything else in your post is fantasy (including the fear that 40% of all doctors will quit).  Personally, I prefer a doctor who is more concerned with my well-being than his paycheck and maybe if even a part of what you say is true, we'll improve the medical profession at the same time by weeding out all the scum-sucking profit-takers that have no scruples, morals, or sense of duty to their profession (i.e., the good doctors will stick it out because they have sworn an oath, and they know their service is important).

chewy
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Joined: Nov 2007
Current Posts: 1107

Final score:  shays,1

                     Real, 0

 

Real, where did you come up with that 40% figure?  Do you just create your own data to support your argument?

KragJorgensen1896
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Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363

Investors Business Daily covered the topic on September 15th about physicians wanting to leave the profession if Obamacare passed.

45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILYPosted 09/15/2009 07:09 PM ET

shays
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(1) I don't believe it for a second, but

(2) if true, then good riddance!

KragJorgensen1896
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Current Posts: 363

You do not "improve" the medical profession by having the government reimburse you for less than the cost/or a fraction of providing medical services.

Did you ever consider that might be the reason why doctors could not keep their practices running or would want to get out if Obama's plan passes?

shays
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I was a public school teacher ... I did not practice my profession on a "fee for service" basis.  I was paid a salary for the work I did.  Like it or lump it, it's the way the educational profession has been run ... forever.  It works.  Those who tell you our educational system is broken are full of hot tuna ... the only thing "broken" about it is that we have too many children crammed into too few classrooms with too few well-prepared teachers on campuses where you can go a week without recognizing anyone but we are too cheap and too lazy to put into our educational system what is needed to make it work for an incredibly diverse population (heck ... 1/3 of the American population is p[bleep]ed off BECAUSE there is so much diversity, which is the REAL reason they want to not pay for anything and want to take their kids out of schools that have those kinds of kids in them).

I don't know about you, but I don't want my kids being taught by someone who is more concerned about their salary than about what they are doing in the classroom.  The same is true of doctors.  I want doctors to be well-paid (they DO have an arduous and expensive path to follow to become doctors), to live comfortable lives based upon the SERVICE they provide and to not have to worry about how they are going to pay off their educational debts or for the occasional medical mistake they make.  But I want them paid a salary for keeping people healthy ... for taking them from where they first encounter them to a better condition of health.  It's not a hard concept.  And believe me, if adequately (and fairly) rewarded, good doctors will continue to practice their skill and craft on salaried income.  If they don't, it sort of shoots a hole in that entire capitalist argument, if you ask me.

CCKitty
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"The same is true of doctors.  I want doctors to be well-paid (they DO have an arduous and expensive path to follow to become doctors), to live comfortable lives based upon the SERVICE they provide and to not have to worry about how they are going to pay off their educational debts or for the occasional medical mistake they make."

If you took the whole population of physician's and dentists - their income, locations and practices - you will find it mirrors many other non medial related business's. You have family run practices, private practice, partnership practices, remote physican's, single hospitals, small hospital groups and large national hospital organizations - in addition to some that reach out from other countries. There are non profits, educational hospitals (most expensive), private and some that are predominatly funded by govt funding - to name a few

Graduating after medical school does not make a physician or a dentist. You will find that it takes a tremendous amount of time and energy and years after graduation just to keep your head above water. Malpractice insurance in addtion to ongoing activities, education and non billable hours to ensure they can meet requirements to keep up with practices of excellence. Then there are the fees for all of this. If a physician is not doing this, they get behind very quickly - and it is not good practice. If you are private you must keep this up in addition to your credentials and privledges at a local hospital (if your private practice requires this). There is more - but it is very complicated to say the least. Most but not all are on call 24 hours. How this is handled depends on the practice.

Shays - How much is your personal time worth to you BTW?

Maybe we should peek more at those making profit on services that are not covered because they are not essential, in addition to those with practices outside of the US making a mint on the money spent for a "touch up" face lift that goes wrong in the US.

"But I want them paid a salary for keeping people healthy ... for taking them from where they first encounter them to a better condition of health.  It's not a hard concept.  And believe me, if adequately (and fairly) rewarded, good doctors will continue to practice their skill and craft on salaried income."

This is an impossible goal to meet and the statement does not make sense. Humans are not automobiles that can be tuned up - the condition of being human is very complex and at times unpredictable. If the patient is requesting this, than so be it - but it would require a whole team. Diet, exercise, psychology, personal trainer, plastic surgery etc - depending on the request or person's need. No joke - I guarantee you that there are people that can give a good arguement towards why they need plastic surgery for their mental and physical health.

Who is to decide what a "better" condition of health "is" exactly? The physician? the healthcare organization or the patient? Especially when it comes down to the person doing it is not the physician. I bet you do some things that might be condsidered unhealthy and rightfully so. Right?

Shay - I think your heart is in the right place and your ideas are good, believe me I have heard this scenario before, but I think we should be careful on how this is handled and worded.

shays
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Thanks for your positive and constructive input ... it is refreshing to encounter a voice able to express disagreement in a civil and thoughtful manner.  I understand every point you have made, and recognize that the problem ... as with many institutional problems ... is that the number of participants involved is vast, and the interconnections between them and peers and them and related, non-medical factors, is enormous to the point that one-size-fits-all solutions cannot work.

When you look at the situation in the context of how things are today, and how medicine is practiced today, I think much of what you say makes sense.  That said, I respectfully disagree with your perspective.  I urge you to try to look at the problem from a different angle.  Or, as the character Atticus Finch says in To Kill A Mockingbird, try putting on a different person's shoes and see the world through his eyes.

There is no reason on earth that medicine cannot be practiced as a social service; a function of society performed by skilled and trained individuals or groups (institutions, if you will) to monitor the health and well-being of individuals within society and, in so doing, work for the betterment of society as a whole.  In primitive societies, the curers and medical practitioners understood this clearly ... they usually worked (their "magic") independently, but were not above enlisting the rest of the social group in performing the rituals necessary to restore health to their patients (or the health of their group or the health of the natural world, which in many respects was exactly the same thing).  Now, I am not pretending that we can return to a primitive world view in regards to how we view medicine, or how it is practiced (though your astute reference to medicine being delivered by a TEAM and involving more than bandages and surgery and medicines is close to that perspective) ... but I do think we can easily shift gears and view the entire world of medicine as something that is performed for the public good by treating individual troubles and illnesses.

I am a retired public school teacher.  I fully understand the differences in the field of medicine and education, but I also recognize the broad similarities.  As a teacher, it is foolhardy (and dangerous) to expect all children to perform exactly the same way at the same time (usually determined, arbitrarily, by someone outside of day-to-day contact with individual students) and to measure their "learning" against arbitrary standards of what a "typical" kid should know and be able to do.  Instead, teachers take children from where they are ... at the beginning of each year ... and attempt to intervene in measured ways to move them forward.  The same is absolutely true of health.  I agree when you say that no one can provide a definition for a "better" condition of health, or describe "exactly" what it "is" for every different individual (because the same is true of learning, incidentally) ... but that doesn't stop practitioners in the field of medicine or education from attempting to help people "get better".  That's their job, even if the means to measure it are subjective, not objective.  Can you imagine the silliness of paying a doctor (or a nurse, or an anesthesiologist, and so on) their salary based upon how well each patient does on some written test of their "health" ... or, for that matter, if we could design the instruments to accurately measure and define "good health" and then reward or punish medical practitioners based upon the performance of each individual on that "test"?

But just because the outcomes are difficult to measure, and just because sometimes there just are situations in which nothing can possibly succeed, does not prevent social service providers from doing the best that they can do and still trying to provide the best services possible.

In a nutshell, then.  Medicine and its practice is a social service.  Medical providers work hard and have a very important job.  They should be well-paid for their services (and should definitely make more than they spend), and afforded all due respect and status that such service deserves.  They should work in teams that take into consideration the whole human being they are serving, and factor into their practice such incredibly important preventive measures as diet, exercise, stress and rest (while the rest of our society owes each of us some basic safeguards in regards to the food we eat, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the stuff put into our clothes, furniture and other material goods that influence our public and individual health).  Doctors and other practitioners are free to pursue the specialties that intrigue them, and possibly separate pay scales could be developed to reflect the nature of those specialities (and sometimes used as a carrot to entice more practitioners into areas of medicine in need of more practitioners ... just like the field of education should be paying those teachers who are willing to work in challenged and troubled schools ... or in the primary grades ... more money as a means to entice better qualified or more experienced teachers to address our greatest current needs).

There should be NO profit in the health care industry.  By profit, I mean income in excess of expense that is used to pay dividends to stockholders whose bottom-line interests are the dividends, not the efficiency or proficiency of the service creating them.  Profit plowed back into the system to make it better, to expand it, and to equitably reward those doing the successful work (not just the directors and the upper management, for example) is more than acceptable -- it is to be encouraged.

That's my vision of health care reform.  It is starkly different from the health insurance reform currently being debated in the halls of Congress and in the public media.  I am not at all happy with a proposal that will simply give 30,000,000 more Americans private insurance provided by the monstrous and obscene leeches that are the insurance companies.

CCKitty
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LOL- Shays - my dear.... I have been in both shoes on both sides BTW - another reason I see the complexity and the best way to handle it (per me)

There is no reason on earth that medicine cannot be practiced as a social service; a function of society performed by skilled and trained individuals or groups (institutions, if you will) to monitor the health and well-being of individuals within society and, in so doing, work for the betterment of society as a whole

I have no arguement against this - it is possible. But keep in mind once this occurs, other peices of the puzzle will dissapate (positive ones). This is why I think we should be careful how it is worded and modeled. Might think to do this on a small scale - starting with a University Hospital in a city or community agreeable to particpate. First with a class of Med students taught and trained with this mindset and once they graduate, apply this in the community. They have made attempts at this before, just don't have all the details.

shays
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I was born in the Long Beach (CA) Community Hospital.  It was a hospital owned and operated by the city of Long Beach.  It worked pretty darn good, doctors did a darn good job (I had major surgery there as a seven-year old, and again as a 15-year old), people got paid a salary and performed the services that were needed (not paid for the services they performed ... that's a Reagan-era "reform"), and anyone who lived in the city of Long Beach could receive medical care through the hospital.  Private, for-profit hospitals ... especially in a national corporate model ... are a new thing.

They need to be disappeared.

CCKitty
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Agreed - it will take some time  but we are moving back in that direction.

Patience :))

KragJorgensen1896
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Polls indicate that most people like their health coverage as is and are against Obama's plans but he doesn't give an inch. He just repeats the same message over and over on the weekend talk shows expecting a different result (as though people somehow didn't hear him the first time). They do not like what they hear.

The Democrats need to get out of the way - propose reforms that the public wants that are affordable instead of gutting/taking over the entire delivery system to satisfy the left wing of the party and create more political power for them.

The elderly have already figured out the "reforms" will result in substantial Medicare cuts for them. Obama looked foolish claiming that eliminating waste, fraud and abuse from Medicare would be enough to finance his new plans. And the CBO doesn't agree with the plans being deficit neutral either.

 

KragJorgensen1896
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Liberals bash conservatives for attempting to impose morality on the public at large but you complain about those who "made it" will not "share"? Since when is it the job of the government to give you everything you want?

The perversion/delusion is coming from those who think what others earn/work/sacrifice for belongs to the state and needs to be passed out accordingly to what one "needs". Those who disagree are somehow "not good Americans". Perhaps we should impose a "gag order" on them for opposing the "will of the people" and being too "greedy"?

The government has been "sharing" too much and for too long. There are trillions of dollars of unfunded liabilities in the Medicare and Social Security programs. Welfare programs encouraged dependency, spent trillions of dollars and the leadership of the Democratic Party opposed reforms (that worked). Obama is running up deficits that even other countries are concerned about and now you're complaining about not "sharing" enough?

Let's be "good Americans" and save a step - 100% taxation (sharing by force of law). Let the government/Obama parcel out "allowances" for food, clothing, retirement and shelter for everyone (and at the exact same amount just to be sure it's "fair"). And then let's hold a press conference afterward and call it "prosperity" and "fairness". The scary part is that too many people actually buy into this silliness.

 

chewy
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"Since when is it the job of the government to give you everything you want?"

Tell me Kraq, do you ever not exaggerate in gross superlatives?  Grandiose exclamations?   Exaggerate to the point of ridiculousness to lamely support your position?  The only one who said the government must give us everything - is you. 

Who else said that?  Is that a direct quote; can you name the source?  That is typical empty rhetoric you guys use for demagoguery galore.  Stop it.  You are embarassing yourself. 

The government does serve and protect the people, and promotes growth through reasonable market intervention.  If the market always knows best, why the need for the Sherman Anti Trust act and a thousand pieces of legislation up to the financial melt down of 2008?

Not convinced?  Please review the preamble to the Constitution.

KragJorgensen1896
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So I'm "exaggerating" by pointing out that Shays wants Robin Hood type income redistribution schemes in this nation (longing for the "glory days" of 90% tax rates) because the people that supposedly "made it" (worked/saved/created) will not "share" it? That sounds to me like the government giving you everything what you want - free money at someone else's expense. What earn it if someone else supplies it for free? Here's a radical idea - people should earn their own money instead of expecting a "cut" of their neighbor's.

The government has already created a problem with this type of reasoning - Medicare, Social Security, welfare programs, etc. - they are fiscally unsustainable. Too many take out and not enough pay in. And when confronted with failure (welfare system) the left wing wanted nothing to do with reform.

Stop embarrassing yourself by defending big government redistribution of income schemes/statist agendas as "serving" and "protecting". It's exactly the opposite of freedom. No one, regardless of what their income is, should have 90% of their earnings taxed. It's legalized theft not to mention an incentive to earn as little as possible because you know someone in advance wants most of it taxed.

shays
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You really have issues that need addressing.  To wit ... I have NEVER "longed for" the "glory days" when tax rates for millionaires was at 90% or higher of taxable income.  I have simply pointed out that historically such rates existed, and they existed at a time when the United States became the world's super power, with a super economy and lots of wealth that enabled a lot of people to grow wealthy and at the same time created the largest middle class the world has ever known.  Obviously, whatever "economic destruction" such rates bring is a GROSS EXAGGERATION (and a historical untruth).  I have said, quite emphatically, that the 3% tax CUT that George W Bush gave to the wealthiest people in this country has been devastating, and that it should be eliminated.

Here's why it has been devastating:  Not only has the national treasury been depleted of about $1.7 trillion dollars since 2001, the administration made absolutely no adjustment for losing that revenue ... it kept on spending like a drunken sailor.  George Ws spending orgies ($750 billion GIVEN to the banks whose risky "management" strategies caused the meltdown, without so much as a single line item requiring them to account for that money), gave out close to $100 billion to insurance companies and failing financial institutions through the Fed (without so much as a single "aye" or "nay" vote from the Congress), and lent a ton of cash to three auto companies, two of which went bankrupt and required the government to actually acquire a financial interest in their operation to keep them going.  Heck, all of that spending in the final year in office presented the Obama administration with a $1.2 billion deficit.  And don't forget that unemployment was rising and continues to rise (good thing stimulus money is putting a lot of people BACK to work ... or keeping a lot IN work ... because the unemployment rate would officially be close to 20% by now if it weren't.

And not only were those tax breaks given without so much as a cent cut in spending, but we have another estimated $3 trillion in debt to pay for that stinking "war" that was off budget for the entire time we waged it.

As I see it, about 2-3% of the population got a cushy break from a president and a political party that essentially bankrupted the country while they, themselves, went laughing all the way to the bank (that the rest of us rescued for them).  If I had MY way, they would be required ... given the true national emergency that their good fortune brought on the rest of us ... to pay it all back, with interest (just as Ken Lay's wife should be required to pay back all the people that her husband's business practices robbed).  But that isn't the way that "justice" works in this country.  The rich get richer and the rest of us eat worms.  Oh well.  At least restore the 3% tax rate that was cut, suddenly there's another $1.7 trillion over the next ten years, which is money that goes a long way to finally end this bickering about how to pay for health care reform.

As to "redistribution" of wealth ... my argument, which you don't seem to pay attention to ... is that tax policies from Reagan to Bush II (with a short time out under Clinton) acted to redistribute wealth from the middle- and lower-classes to the wealthy.  Wealth is more concentrated today than at any time since 1929, and those with wealth have more of it than ever.  Meanwhile, median income has actually declined for middle-class and working-class Americans ... well, I could go on, but won't.  EVERY GOVERNMENT redistributes money and wealth, but each government takes it from different groups and passes it along to those it favors or who support it.  That's pretty simple.

The other simple point is that trickle-down doesn't work.  It DOESN'T trickle anywhere.  We've had 30 years to get it to work, and it doesn't.  Those in charge should be fired.  And by "firing" those in charge, I do NOT mean "government" or its representatives ... we already CAN fire them (another issue altogether).  I mean the over-payed semi-royalty to whom we must all bow down to because they have MBAs and they direct major global corporations.

But try and fire one them?

KragJorgensen1896
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<As to "redistribution" of wealth ... my argument, which you don't seem to pay attention to ... is that tax policies from Reagan to Bush II (with a short time out under Clinton) acted to redistribute wealth from the middle- and lower-classes to the wealthy. Wealth is more concentrated today than at any time since 1929, and those with wealth have more of it than ever.  Meanwhile, median income has actually declined for middle-class and working-class Americans ... well, I could go on, but won't.  EVERY GOVERNMENT redistributes money and wealth, but each government takes it from different groups and passes it along to those it favors or who support it.  That's pretty simple.>

What's pretty simple here is that you are essentially advocating an equal outcome society as opposed to an equal opportunity one. Individuals are not held to standards to improve their situation. It's the government's "job" to do it by artificially increasing wages/wealth transfers/retirement security on one side and heavily taxing those with larger incomes on the other to "level the playing field". Sounds like a recipe for dependency and creating a permanent voting bloc.

You get/want to make a value judgment as to what salary/level of earnings are socially acceptable (which is constantly being redefined downward by politicians as they require more funding for their programs). If anyone exceeds that amount they suffer a penalty or a value judgment (based on the belief that when they did well others were held back/exploited in the process). But according to you, this is not really class warfare at all but a "necessary" process that we should all feel good about. Yeah right.

Sounds like you are the one who has "issues". It is not "class warfare" when someone makes more or has more than someone else. It's a function of people exercising their freedoms and pursuing their own interests. You have the opportunity become wealthy in our society by working/sacrificing/saving/investing but it's up to you to make it happen. Not taking those steps, complaining about someone who already did and demanding the government come in to give someone else a portion of it to make it "fair" sounds like something a spoiled child would say.

Most of us learned at young age that it was up to us to make things happen as opposed to expecting others to do it for us. It was morally unacceptable to demand what someone else had worked for and expect them give us a portion of it regardless of how much they had. Why do you insist on doing it and what makes you think you are "qualified" to do so?

shays
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(1) I have never advocated for equal outcomes or an "equal outcome society", and am a staunch supporter for providing equal opportunities.  That is why I became a public school teacher:  I trusted that the elite could take care of their own and wanted to make sure that every child who entered my public school classroom (since public schools are open to everyone and do not pick and choose the clientele) received services from one of the best and brightest of my generation.  In my classroom, students were held to clearly established standards and expectations ... they were made public and made known to each student and all parents; students were responsible for improving their "situation", and played a key role in assessing and evaluating their own performance.  My goal was to take each student from where they were on the learning continuum when they entered my classroom and move them [bleep]her along it than they had been.  Some students needed a lot of help and support to do that; others needed the exact opposite.  "Safety nets" existed for all children, regardless of their skill, background, curiosity or reputation ... learning anything requires taking a risk and risking failure, and pushed students to do both.  This analogy to learning works quite well in society, as a whole.  We are each responsible for our own outcomes, but society exists to provide a safety net ... a hand-up, as it were ... for those who fall short.  For whatever reason.

I also have never said that it is government's "job" to increase wages ... but government DOES exist to protect the people who make things from those with money who would exploit them.  At the same time, it exists to make sure that the mob does not take advantage of the honest businessman.  Government certainly should not exist to protect the narrow interests of individuals over the interests of the people he (or she) hires or the safety of those who purchase the particular goods and services he (or she) offers.  Prudent employers provide a reasonable living wage to their workers; but historically, many have done so only because they had to (at times, under the barrel of a gun).  Government exists to make sure that employers pay their workers a reasonable minimal wage.  People who earn billions of dollars a year form a new royalty in this country, and we do not believe in no stinking royalty here.  I don't care how smart or industrious or busy or responsible the Baron happens to be ... he is still a Baron and if he uses his wealth to exercise or influence political power over the interests of others (and is successful in waging that influence), then we need to make it impossible for him (or her) to do so.  They can keep some of their wealth, too.  I would just do what Dwight David Eisenhower did ... take 91% of it to strengthen the middle class of the United States.  Most conservatives "love" the middle class ... why do you find it so hard to admit that some social and economic policies of the New Deal Era actually worked to HELP middle class Americans, and created the largest middle class the world has ever known.

(2) I make no value judgement about socially acceptable salary levels.  I do find multi-million dollar salaries and even larger bonus packages to be grotesquely obscene, especially when built upon lies, deception and blatant violation of anti-trust laws.  I support an aggressive progressive income tax that forces the wealthiest to reinvest a large percentage of what they have earned back into the country.  If they won't, then the government will take it and do it for them.  Ninety percent of three billion dollars is two billion, seven-hundred million dollars.  A person currently earning three billion dollars would end up keeping $300 million of it.  That's a pretty pile of cash, by anyone's standards ... to say otherwise, of course (whether it is to express faux outrage at the unfairness of it all, or that no one has the right to say what another person needs or not), is pure silliness.

(3) Having more than someone else is, as you state, not an issue related to "class warfare" ... unless the "more" was obtained by exploiting the culpability or vulnerability or economic status of someone else.  Those with more are not free to "exercise their freedoms" or to "pursue their interests" when in doing so they cheat others or take advantage of those with less power than they have.

(4) We are a society of human beings, united by common goals with common interests and needs.  As the best amongst us go (or so the saying goes), so goes the country.  But the opposite is also true ... as the "worst" amongst us go, so goes the country.  Yes, there are freeloaders.  There are freeloaders in every family, but most families usually find ways to address the reality of their low-life peers that is constructive and helps everyone.  Those families that don't, as a matter of fact ... including those who turn their backs on needy family members or throw them into the streets or at the mercy of that infamous cold-cruel world ... are generally described as being dysfunctional.  So, by that respect, your description of a "what's in it for me" society that ignores those within it that are having troubles (for whatever reason) is a description of a dysfunctional society.

shays
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In watching movies about Nazi Germany as a child, there was one recurring element I never really understood.  That was the scene in almost every film in which someone checking into a hotel or boarding a train was asked to produce their "papers." I could never understand what these "papers" were that everyone carried with them and had to produce whenever it was demanded. 

Over the past couple of weeks, I have seen conservative lawmakers, commentators and even letter writers demanding we pass laws requiring everyone to produce proof of citizenship before they can receive medical treatment in the United States. 

That this is coming from the same people who accuse the president of behaving like a Nazi leaves me speechless and unable to come up with a logical explanation.

Lou Dobbs among others really want to see everyone implanted with chips, not just given cards. The health reform Republicans want would demand an implant or Passport (minimum) before treatment at ERs. That the right doesn't even recognize the tongue-in-cheek reference to our "socialist" pledge is enlightening as well. Bill Banks has seen the U.S. of Boehner, Inhofe, Conrad et al.

CCKitty
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Good late night reading entertainment

my favorite was Shays "she s not my friend" and when a poster (Chewy?) came in and gave the score.

Maybe you can get it really going for the guys and have those sexy Budwieser Models to come in with round number cards in between breaks - like in boxing - (joking guys)

But really - a good read - I most certainly couldn't do what you do. I pick issues - the platforms are too rigid for me.

Nite ;)

tom925
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Shays, we may be of similar age. I remember the exact same thing regarding the "papers" in the movies. Bottom line for me, I dont want to trade our freedom for security but we have to make some trades. We all agree that we need a drivers license to drive a car. This is a samll loss of freedom in order to have the privledge to drive. You can argue this one either way but you have to give up something to get something. I want us to be able to manage our costs as a country on behalf of the tax payers.

I dont want illegal aliens going to our hospitals because they can get basic care. This just costs us even more. I do want to take away all incentive for people to break our laws though.

We do not have to lose our humanity to follow our own laws.

shays
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I understand your position, and essentially agree with it.  I, personally, have no problem with a national identification card that is carte-blanche for everything (and is separate from your driver's license, social security number, and any other identifying documents).  I don't even object to showing my card to receive medical treatment, check out a book, or for any other situation that requires my identification.  I don't want to have to show my card to cross from one state to another.  I do not want that occasional tough cop being able to bully me into displaying my identification (though as a matter of fact, I never hesitate to present my driver's license to a police officer who asks to see it ... well, I did one time and I paid a price for doing so; it's a long story and I'll share it only if you want).  I do not think we would give up a thing if we had such a card.  I simply find it ironic how it is that conservatives, who in the not too distant past, were adamantly against any kind of national identification process.

tom925
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Some sort of national ID card seems reasonable. I think lumping people into buckets like conservatives and liberals is a mistake though. In some ways I fall into one bucket but in other ways I fall into the other. If I see fault though by either side I have no issue calling it out. This country needs some honest debate about the important issues we face. Civil honest debate.

shays
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Couldn't agree with you more.  That's what I try to do here, and though some of the less than civil folks on this list sometimes get under my skin, I am more than willing to discuss just about anything with anyone with sense enough to recognize that some of what I say is true, some more of it makes sense, some of it is pretty whacky and some of it I am the only person on the planet who shares that particular view

RealAmerica
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Cckitty wrote '... Good late night reading entertainment ...'

Well, kitty, why should we have all the fun? Let's share a little. For example, maybe you could confirm the question regarding what health care you have that is being asked on the 2010 Census form (pg. 68). Because if it is true, and ObamaCare is passed as 'written' (yeah, I know the DemocRATS are refusing to provide copies until hours before they expect to vote) then the possibilities for having the IRS seize your assets for failing to buy health insurance will increase exponentially. This question on health insurance coverage is completely new. In light of DemocRAT proposals to tax people without "acceptable" health coverage, and if need be to imprison such persons if they fail to pay the health care tax penalty, this new Census question takes on significance.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

RealAmerica
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Good News, Bad News

The bad news is, Rep. Joe Wilson was right, ObamaCare will be available to illegal aliens. The Senate Finance Committee rejected an amendment that would require id when applying for benefits.

The good news? Obama is considering that his upcoming AMNESTY II doesn't have a chance of passing, so he has to provide health care to illegal aliens through the back door.

I wonder if the House of Representatives will censure all the members who voted to admonish Rep. Wilson for his 'You Lie!' outburst.

I'll Keep My Freedom -

You Keep The Chains

RealAmerica

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

There is no need to apologize to a cretinous prostitute in the payroll of the Health Industry.  When a reform bill passes, with a public option, the Republican Party would be wise to jettison the extreme right wing (including all extreme Christian evangelicals) from its midst if it hopes to survive another election cycle.

Just a few years ago, conservatives were screaming bloody murder (not to mention "totalitarianism", "Big Brother", "socialism" ... and worse) when the idea of a national identity card was first proposed.  Apparently, now that it is convenient and expedient to flip-flop on the issue, they are more than willing to sell out whatever fake convictions they may have once professed.

I think the best strategy in the weeks ahead is to acknowledge the worst fears and paranoid expressions/inventions that the right comes up with ... SURE aliens will receive health care, for example ... as a way to humor the sick bast*rds.  Then pass the stuff anyway.  We all know aliens receiving health care is a red herring ... sure, some might get away with a free mastectomy or nose job, but most people living in this country illegally will continue getting the type of health care they get today:  ZERO, unless they have amputated a finger in a strawberry picking machine or are suffering some other emergency medical situation ... just like today.  And, to be honest, I don't really give a rat's patootey if some poor Hispanic woman gets a free mastectomy on my dime (which is about all my contribution would be); you see, unlike "compassionate conservatives" ... who have exposed themselves as heartless and soulless monsters who don't really care what happens to anyone else in this country who cannot match their perceived "privileged" social status ... some Americans do still care about the quality of life of those with whom we live and who live in our midst.

shays
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Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715

In a telephone survey of 3,003 U.S. adults conducted by Thomson Reuters - they found effective healthcare reform crossed party lines. 78 percent of Democrats were willing to pay higher taxes, as well as 64 percent of independents and 48 percent of Republicans. That's also true of most all Industrialized countries. While there's a bunch of news out about how many of the European countries are moving right - Europe's center-right parties have embraced many ideas of the left, generous welfare benefits, nationalized health care, and sharp restrictions on carbon emissions. If we had a floor that none of "us" fell through - then perhaps capitalism would look better. Well....I would add robust financial consumer protections to the mix too.

A CBS/Reuters poll taken immediately after the Senate Finance Committee rejected two separate amendments that would have added a public option to the HealthCareCo "Reform" Bill (that is, the Baucus Bill that was ghost-written by lobbyists for Big Health Care), 63% of those polled favored the public option (and 53% favored a single-payer system).  The ONLY people opposed to health care reform are all members of the Republican Party in the United States Congress and a handful of Democrats who are on the payroll of health care lobbyists.

And this just reported … the accumulated wealth of the Forbes 400 has only increased by a mere 2% ($30 billion) over the last year.  That small increase (they had grown accustomed to double-digit increases) may seem like a pittance, but compare it to the poor sucker who just lost 40% of his or her 401k.  And just think … $30 billion would provide five hundred thousand teachers a year's salary of $60,000!  Those top 400 rich people have a combined $1.57 trillion.  That would pretty much pay for the uninsured to have health insurance for about 20 years (but to take it from them to do so would, indeed, be extremely unfair).  It would quite possibly fund a Manhattan or Apollo-style Project to address issues related to climate change and developing industries providing renewable energy and a green, sustainable manufacturing sector.  It is MORE than enough to endow every college and university so that any child or adult who wished to go to college could do so (whether they "earned" admission or not).

As for the welfare state … just how much of the roughly $13 trillion in subsidies and guarantees for the financial, pharmaceutical, auto, and insurance industries has gone to actual PEOPLE?  I'll tell you.  Zero.  The roughly $350 billion annual outlay for means tested programs for low income citizens (which, to be true, some do abuse) pales in comparison – Wall Street's welfare is about 37 times larger than welfare provided to people!

We have turned our backs on providing free higher education, health care, and a sustainable economy.  Instead, we have created an unregulated fantasy finance boom and bust on Wall Street (where investment banks would buy up any mortgage they could find … who cares if the borrower had no job, could not make a down-payment, or operated under a false name because the lender had an instant buyer in Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs and any other number of outfits that until 2000 were forbidden to enter the housing market at all … and then sell it to greedy investors with all sorts of AAA ratings on the security of those loans … itself a con of still unexplored magnitude) which actually crashed the real economy.  We have 400 billionaires in exchange for 29 million unemployed and underemployed fellow Americans.  Our infrastructure is in shambles.  We have an environmental crisis and a health care system that would do Rube Goldberg proud.  And we have the worst income distribution since 1929.  I bet everyone of the top Forbes 400 members could get buy with an annual income of $100,000,000 … I bet it wouldn't harm their entrepreneurial spirit in the slightest, and it certainly wouldn't hurt the economy if the middle class were given even a glimmer of hope that one illness or one accident could put them under a bridge or on a park bench tomorrow night.

RealAmerica
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Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158