Posted on Friday, 12/14/2007 - 6:11 a.m. PST — by BazookaJoe
Your thoughts on the Mitchell report and all the big names in baseball linked to steroid use? I was heartbroken to see some of my favorites like Roger Clemons and Miguel Tejada in there. And Jack Cust? Does this now exonerate Bonds in some way knowing that Steroid use was so widespread? There's many pitchers on the list, so wouldn't that level the playing field for the hitters that used them? They are calling this the biggest scandal since the 1919 Chicago Black Sox.
http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_7710319
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Whoa there 001. I think this will be the first time I am diametrically opposed to your opinions.
There is and never was any proof that Bonds bankrolled BALCO. No pun intended but that's straight out of left field.
IMHO I believe this whole steroids thing is overblown and totally misleading. The media has pushed and pushed until they have literally created a mountain out of nothing.
For once I would like for someone to show some empirical data supported by scientific protocol that definitively links steroids and HGH to inhuman physical gains and achievements. All there is out there is anecdotal information and speculation. I've been waiting to see one report and have yet to see anything.
We do know that abuse of these substances will cause adverse reactions and sometimes lead to death but that's all we really know and that's no different from any other drug on the market. There is too much muckraking without a complete understanding of what we are dealing with. This report does nothing to help grasp the situation. Just a little CYA in effect.
Just my opinion.
Edited 12/13/2007 11:50 pm by MrTemptation
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Mr. T, if you keep using big words like diametrically, empirical, anecdotal, and muckraking, we might start accusing you of using intelligence enhancing steroids. Where can we get some of those so we're not at a disadvantage? LOL!
So in other words, you think the performance enhancing charge is a bunch of crap, and if they want to lower their life expectancy by putting unnatural and foreign substances into their bodies, go ahead and let them do it? But what about the morality of it, the message it sends to little kids that idolize these sports heroes and strive to be like them? 001 has a son who he takes to the A's games. How's he ever going to cheer for Jack Cust again?
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I'm not sure of the morality of it because I'm trying to see where morality applies. If we're talking about drug abuse in the sense that it's dangerous - like any other drug - then let's deal with them in that way but this is all about cheating which there is no proven direct correlation. Only media driven speculation.
As far as what it teaches our kids, the lesson is drug abuse is wrong but get as much information as you can before passing judgment because we don't know if these players abused these drugs or if it was illegal when they did it (if they did it). They can cheer for those players because they are doing what we want them to do - hit homeruns, strike out batters, steal bases and all of those things sports heroes do. Parents can set the parameters for iconic worship and decide what's good and bad for their children. If their heroes are truly bad people, get new heroes.
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Mr. T,
I'm hoping you were jesting in your posting about this. Assuming you have a computer, evidenced by your posting here, and that you are smart enough to know how to search the internet for bits of data of interest to you, I am shocked that you have been unable to find links to research about anabolic steroids.
For those willing to pull their heads out the sand for a few minutes, a quick search for " steroid research" or "anabolic research" reveals hundreds of scientifically peer reviewed studies going back to the late 1800's where some whacky researchers isolated testosterone, and not knowing the effects injected themselves to see what would happen.
One such paper that seemed of interest is linked below, but I'll leave you to your own capable research to discover more fascinating reads.
http://rphr.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/57/1/411
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I remember watching those East German female athletes in the Olympics in the 70's and 80's and sure looked like something was going on.
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I'm glad you referenced that particular paper - which I was aware of and specifically stated the controversy in the scientific community over the actual effects of steroids. It's not a new branch of study and you would think that after a hundred years of research, they would have more definitive answers than presented. Those findings that were presented are still challenged and refuted and, as I have said, there is no empirical data to substantiate any claims made so far.
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I am so confused. While you're writing appears to be crisp and intelligent, your conclusions come from left field.
Saying the the results of hundreds of studies that on the whole are in agreement with one another are of great scientific debate reminds me of the subculture that suggests that there is still great debate as to whether or not the holocaust occurred. In the realm of anabolic steroid research, the greatest debate, if any of significance is around how much benefit there is. It is almost universally accepted that there is significant benefit in recovery by using anabolic steroids. With a number of exotic variants having been cooked up in labs over the past 20-25 years, some of those variants are hotly debated as to safety and efficacy.
I also don't understand your premise about Barry, by the way I think he's guilty guilty guilty, having funded BALCO. No one outside of your post has shown any evidence whatsoever to make that link. By the way, designer steroids was/were not the sole business of BALCO, they formulated and sold tons of vitamins, minerals and other supplements, so funding for 1 or 2 knowledgeable technicians to design masking agents for steroids would certainly have been an affordable exercise for them without the deep pockets of Barry.
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I don't mind when people like Mr. T question the validy of sources or so called facts. I think it's prudent to do that. Afterall, it wasn't until I read, Kimberly Bell's, (Bond's Ex-girlfriend's) statements in the November issue of Playboy that I felt he was probably using. I tried to read it with a blinds-eye without prejudice, but it was hard considering the photos on the opposite pages. When you think about it, she was an EX-girlfriend who was the other woman as Bonds was still married while he was seeing her, so she probably had it out for him. The funny part was, as she described it, when Bonds was using steroids it wasn't really performance enhancing at all. If fact she claims it made him kind of moody.
Edited 12/14/2007 2:12 pm by BazookaJoe
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You're funny. What do you mean you were 'reading' playboy, like there's words on them pages...
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I believe the term is"shrinkage".
You do know about shrinkage right?
(Dried) Peas
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This excerpt is from the Playboy article. It sounds like she really had a personal vendetta against him, so you really have to take it with a grain of salt. A scorned woman rarely shows any mercy. What I want to know is who told Bond's you are supposed to put the little blue pills up your nose? Is that why his head grew? LOL! Personally, I always enjoy watching Bonds hit and if he gets picked up by the A's, I'll enjoy watching him just as much. *
Bell catered to Bonds, too: She tells Playboy he was no All-Star in the bedroom. "When you're dealing with somebody who's that selfish, with that kind of ego, you learn to exaggerate your reactions to make him feel better," she said, or as the skin mag put it, she faked it.
Their sex life really slumped, however, when Bonds started taking steroids, driven by jealousy after Mark McGwire began receiving piles of press for his pursuit of Roger Maris' single-season home run record. Bell told Playboy that Bonds suffered from sexual dysfunction, one side effect of steroid use. He tried Viagra several times but didn't like it because it affected his vision and stuffed up his nose.
Bell says she fell in love with a lean, charismatic Bonds in 1994. She was young and single, he was divorcing his first wife, and both had emotional wounds from their childhoods. Bell grew up without her father; Bonds' dad, former Yankee Bobby Bonds, was emotionally distant. She offered Bonds a sounding board, a shoulder to lean on when the pressures of superstardom became too great. He became a father figure, a big, strapping protector.
The relationship started to sour, she says, after Bonds started using performance-enhancing drugs. "(Trainer Greg) Anderson was always at spring training with us, everywhere we went. Barry used to have a little satchel, and in the mornings he would say 'Hey, I need to go talk with Greg.' They'd grab the satchel and go into a room, and then I'd hear the door lock."
Bonds was always moody - "I always figured he had PMS, like a woman," Bell said – but the drugs radically changed his behavior as well as his body. He became a different person, controlling, threatening and finally violent.
"It went from 'I want to know where you are at' to 'I'm gonna f------ kill you. I'm gonna cut your head off and leave you in a ditch.'"
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"I believe the term is"shrinkage"
Yeah, and then compound the shrinkage by using steroids, Preparation H, and playing a night game in frigid Cleveland in October.
"Nothing to get hung about..."
(John Lennon - "Strawberry Fields")
Edited 12/16/2007 9:31 am by BazookaJoe
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The irony is too much. An article about performance enhancing drugs in a magazine loaded with pictures of women with enhanced bodies that have been digitally enhanced by photoshop.
"Nothing is real."
(John Lennon - "Strawberry Fields")
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Where are these comments about Barry Bonds funding BALCO coming from? I haven't seen anything to suggest that. If you don't agree with whatever conclusions I have come to, that's fine. My only conclusions here is that the studies are incomplete at best and ambiguous as well. I have said the only benefit that has been agreed on is that recovery can be significant but it's how they get from there to you can hit more homeruns and strike out more batters that's a problem for me.
Recovery allows you to work out to the point of muscle and mental fatigue, rest for a period of time until you can work out again for maximum effect. These drugs can shorten that rest period. The key here is that you have to work out - and really hard to boot - to your max to get the full benefits. That's where the debate lies. Is it the drugs or is it the person just believing the drugs are pumping them up while they work out harder. There are no reports available that can make that distinction which makes this whole scandal moot.
I believe that most of these steroids have had a deleterious effect on a persons body when abused. They have cut more careers short than they have enhanced. IIRC Jose Canseco was a pretty good player out here before he got into heavy usage. Then he's got balls bouncing off of his head and no chance of making the Hall of Fame. Quite a few athletes have died after continuous abuse. That's the real story and that's where the focus should be. Forget the asterisks and deal with this like any type of drug abuse. Find out what's good and what's bad and get rid of the bad.
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Granted, Bonds and a lot of atheletes these days are workout freaks but whether it was steroids, human growth hormone, some other designer drugs or a combination of them all, Bonds and others went through a transformation in body mass that can't be attributed to strength conditioning alone. His hat size increased, his shoe size increased, it's obvious to anyone that his entire body bulked up dramatically. More muscle mass = more strength and if you have the ability like Bonds did to combine that with his ability to see a fastball better than most other players and turn on it in time, you're going to be able to hit it [bleep]her. Somebody his age should not be able to hit a ball as far as he can without the use of these drugs. I don't have any test data to back that up, I'm just using common sense and what I've seen after following baseball for over fifty years.
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I'm not sure that's true Stoney. That's what we have all heard through the media. Barry Bonds could not have grown like that normally. We have heard that ad infinitum to invalidate what he has accomplished but still there is no proof that these drugs can be attributed with his dramatic growth. Heck, over the same period of time I've grown bigger, wear a bigger hat size and can only squeeze me feet into shoes I had seventeen years ago and I won't take an Advil and the only needles I'll allow near my body are updates to my immunization records if I go overseas. To say that's impossible is foreign to me. This day and age 35 is no longer the half life point. People can get better after that age with the proper regimen. Also there is nothing documented that says these drugs help you hit a ball [bleep]her. There's not even a consensus on their effects. I've followed baseball a long time too and cheating has been around in it for a long time but this comes across as a Trojan horse to me. We are being led down the wrong path.
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BJ brought up the East German women's olympic swimming team from back in the 70's. You'll have to admit that it's been well documented what they did to themselves and how that translated to record breaking performances from a previously lackluster sports program. Are you suggesting that the same sort of results can't be achieved in other sports with the use of drugs?
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Those East German swimmers were on an incredibly strict regimen. Government sponsored at that. Highly experimental and they tried everything. There was obvious abuse of various drugs and unsavory methods to increase their performance levels. There could have been some good in that and there was surely some bad there but regardless of what anybody thinks, it was still humans competing - not cyborgs. They still had to go out there and physically achieve their goals.
In a sense this is just the chickens coming home to roost. Since the days of Archimedes we have been looking for ways to look younger, live longer, be stronger be more beautiful or develop some type of prowess through medicine. Well they may have found ways to do these things and the media says it's wrong so it must be wrong. Who knew.
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Got a funny story along those lines. A few years ago I managed an apartment building and there was a single John Muir nurse that drove me nuts calling all the time at all hours with little picyune complaints. Finally one night, she leaves me a message on my cell that there's a vampire living in a coffin in the underground garage. I went to bed ignoring the message as her just being paranoid again, but later I was awaken when another tenant called saying there were strange humming noises coming from outside and it was keeping him awake.
It turns out this other goofy tenant was a cycling enthusiast training for a big triathalon or something and he had this homemade oxygen chamber thingy set up on the bed of his pick-up truck that looked like a coffin. I guess he was climbing in it when he had a confrontation with the nurse in the garage and she ran off screaming to call me. When the owner found out, he was mad at me for letting him plug it into the house recepticle each night that he was paying for. The guy doing it explained that by sleeping in this coffin thing while "pure" oxygen was pumped in, would somehow increase his lungs ability to process oxygen, thus increasing his endurance so he had a better chance to win the race. I don't know if it was cheating or not, but it sure caused a massive sized headache for me.
What happened to getting a good night's sleep, strapping it on, then going out there and competing to the best of your natural abilities?????
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And practicing abstinence of course. We all know that it saps energy before competition, right?
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"And practicing abstinence of course. We all know that it saps energy before competition, right?"
I knew this gal on the swimming team once who believed the opposite was true!
I think they need to identify the substances in question and then pass some specific MLB rules before they can repeal any awards or strike any records from the books. Gaylord and his spitters, Sosa and his corked bat, Brett and his Preparation H... like Mr. T said, where do you draw the line? The fans will decide in their minds whose reputation will be marred and whose will be spared.
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I thought that stuff Brett put on his bat was pine tar. I hope he didn't get the two mixed up in his locker. No wonder he walked kind of funny.
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Maybe Pete Rose's chances just got better by process of elimination?
Now I wonder what was in that Brylcreem stuff?
A little dab will do ya!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7f-1lBuZZA&feature=related
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I thought I saw Lenny Dystra on the list? He always seemed like the All American kid who made the big leagues on sheer desire and hustle. Maybe he's getting a bad rap like Shoeless Joe? Say it ain't so!
I'm sure glad Willie McGee wasn't on it. He was always one of the good ones.
I thought I saw FP Santangelo on the list? Wasn't he helping out on the Giants telecasts with Kuip and Kruk? If so, what are they going to do with him?
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Santangelo was always a stong apologist for Bonds.
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Actually 001, I do believe if BALCO did give Barry Bonds anything, they would be quick to give it to him for free. The association would send their legitimacy through the roof (their thinking at the time). Unfortunately it has turned into something else.
I'm surprised that no one else finds it odd that a lot of this investigation is being referenced from a book by authors with their own not so clean agenda. Most of this has been a knee jerk reaction from innuendoes and hearsay. We never stopped to determine if these drugs do what they say they do. We jumped straight to who used them and who didn't and how can we rectify the subsequent issues.
The one thing that the majority of these players have in common, is that they are workout junkies. They worked out constantly to improve their bodies and improve their game. I'm sure many of them were willing to find whatever they could to give them an edge but in looking a lot of people seem to overlook a real simple premise. The one thing these drugs are known to do is allow a person's physiology to work more efficiently and recover quickly - so they can work out more often and be ready for their games quicker. Doesn't sound like cheating to me. Not one of these drugs allow you to sit on your butt, drink a beer, inject yourself and go out and hit a 600ft homerun or throw a baseball 110mph. You've got to do a lot of work to get to that point and that's being overshadowed by this book "Game of Shadows". It's wrong and it's a side someone needs to look at with clear vision.
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That whole report was a bunch of crap. Why is it that with all of the investigating that they did, they could only come up with 2 guys in New york and BALCO as the suppliers? Are they trying to say that nobody has a connection in Minnesota, Kansas City, Denver, Milwaukee, ect to get steroids? This to me looks more like a smear campagne. It started with Barry and has now moved onto Clemens. Rocket was no surprise to me. I think that when your best years come after 35, that is a red flag. Steroids aren't just in baseball, they are all over the place. I think this was a big waste of time and money. By publishing the names of those involved based on hear-say is crazy. Does anyone believe that they caught the majority of those who have used steroids? NOT EVEN CLOSE! I think that the MLB dropped the ball on this one.
As for your comment about Barry bankrolling BALCO, cmon man. If your going to make a statement like that have a source or two. That is just plain old stupid.
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I think 001 made the comment about Bonds bankrolling BALCO, not BazookaJoe.
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Barry Bonds may be a jerk. I won't disagree with you there but all I have to go on with that are the media reports. Those tend to be self serving. I'm not a fan of Barry Bonds but I do believe too many people are too quick to take pot shots at him based on allegations only. He's not the first jerk (if he is) in sports, entertainment and the world of celebrity. Jerkiness should not open you up to villification in a trumped up scandal.
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This is a great debate. I love sports and are going to watch it no matter what, and controversy just makes it that much more interesting. Truth be known, the most important thing that drives my desire to follow sports is well my teams are doing. We're lucky that we live where local teams of all levels are abundant, and we can quickly turn our attention to another team in another sport. My friend from Mason City, Iowa was just out here visiting and I don't know how he can stand living there. All the sports and teams we have in the bay area make it easy to be a proud fair weather fan.
Those football guys must all be juicing. I have to admit the size and speed of those linemen make the gladiator aspect of the game fun to watch. Did the Roman fans care what the gladiators did to get game face on? Heck no! I love those John Madden commercials where the guy throws the garden gnome so poorly he knocks his neighbor off his ladder or the guy hits the blocking sled and gets knocked on his keister. Madden shakes his head while the announcer says, "You'd never make it in pro football!" It's true, at least for the averave bloke like us that doesn't use steroids.
But how I see it as a fan, is different from how I see it as a father. My son is 6 foot, 250 lbs in the 7th grade. He wants to play football. Who's to know how far he might go? I wouldn't want him using steroids at all and would rather have him quit if he made it to a level you needed to use them to compete. It's sad to think a lot of players with natural ability are being beaten out by those with less scruples that will use unnatural foreign substances to beat those kids out. The level of play is being artificially increased and that part bothers me. In that respect, I would like to see them eliminate steroids if there is a way to do it, even if it lowered the level of play. It was still fun to watch all those skinny little guys compete back in Stoney's day.
As far as Bonds, McGwire, and all those other guys, was there a rule in place by MLB that made the substances they used illegal? If there were no rules against it, you can't blame them or sanction them in any way. Just call it the Steriods Era, and move on. I'm not clear on whether they broke any rules.
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But how I see it as a fan, is different from how I see it as a father. My son is 6 foot, 250 lbs in the 7th grade. He wants to play football. Who's to know how far he might go? I wouldn't want him using steroids at all and would rather have him quit if he made it to a level you needed to use them to compete.
Joe-
I agree that steroids are not the way to go. However, look at it this way. Steroids are illegal unless prescribed by a doctor. When used correctly, under a doctors care, steroids are just another prescription drug. Yes they are banned in sports, but they are not always bad for you. Now we have HGH. Same thing here. Doctors prescribe it all of the time. My point is this: We are talking about substances that are banned in sports. But at the same time they can definitely assist you in recovering from an injury. This is where things get tricky. I would NEVER encourage anyone to do any of the mentioned drugs. But as I sit here at 5'8", 150lbs, if I were lets say a border line middle infielder, or a punter, and I had the chance to make 1 million or much more, it would be awfully tempting. I totally agree with you about your son. Quit before you need to rely on steroids, but just think if he grew to be 6'7", 350. Can we say NFL?
Just throwing it out there. I am a lot like you. I could sit here and debate sports all day long.
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I have a question. If they decide to sanction players for using steroids and remove names from record books or put asterisks by other names, how far back do you think they should go?
This is not a new phenomena. Steroids have been a part of the game for a long time. Cortisone is a type of steroid. Lots of players have received cortisone injections so they could get back on the field sooner and play effectively. How deep do you want to go? I'm sure some of those high and mighty former players who claimed they played the game the right way received cortisone injections when they got hurt. Was that cheating too? How about Hall of Fame players who bragged about cheating (Gaylord Perry comes to mind). No uproar ever about their inclusion. Now we have Senate investigations.
(Excuse the oncoming rant...)
Mind you the Senate chose to investigate baseball. No investigations into this Iran mess. No investigations into these abnormally high gas prices and oil bs. No investigations into these cases of child molestations. No investigations into abuse of federal programs. Baseball is a nice easy target in an election year. Enuff already.
(Okay, I'm done...)
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LOL! Here's what happens if you get Preparation H on your pitching hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuykfkhjpkE&feature=related
And this is why you aren't allowed to put pine tar on the end of your bat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvOZaGlnAo4
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I don't know...
The three of you (Stoney, 001, BazookaJoe) have me roaring laughing. It's a nice way to start the morning. :-)
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Harrier, do you realize if we could get former Raider coach Joe Bugle, former Dodger Steve Sax, and Saint's receiver Joe Horn, all we would need to do is track down Herb Alpert and we'd have the Tijuana Brass?
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No, I didn't realize that!
ROFLOL
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Those guys are great. If Herb Alpert isn't available, we could have Marv Albert and the Tijuana Brass, live from Madison Square Garden.
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Looks like we have a woodwind section and some strings to complement the brass. A virtual orchestra!
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I'm not actually sure which one will result in greater enhanced performance on your behind-the-back eephus pitch.
The Cream:
The Clear:
Hey, we forgot to add Doug Flutie to our woodwind section!
Edited 12/16/2007 11:06 pm by BazookaJoe
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LOL And Seattle Pilot's Tommy (Harp)er.
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Are you guys finished?
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Ok Stoney, I think 001 and I orchestrated how difficult it is to ensemble an All-Band Instrument Team given how these guys play musical chairs and move around these days.
Are you gonna accuse me of hijacking my own thread now?
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Who me??? No No, by all means, continue. *eyes roll*
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lol
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Barney Fife!
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See the effect all this steroid use has on our youth!
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I can't see the picture. The hot link police must be following your every move. :)
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nothing
This is a disaster. 001 without his graphics is like Superman without his cape.
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Maybe we are supposed to be looking at a little box with a red X in it?
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Nope, he said Black & White, but I still see a red X. There's something rotten in Denmark again.
Do you think 001 has lost his mind and this is a cry for help?
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Could be. I sense a rift in the force.
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That's what happens to your testiclees on that stuff, right?
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Now I can see it. That's funny. You must have had a Barney Fife moment, but glad to see you are up and running again!
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Oboe Wan-Kenobo!
Little Known Fact:
He played for the New York Jedi before he was traded to the Buffalo LightSabers.
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Oh No! I think Tim Lincecum must have caught the same bug that made Zito slip into a post CY has-been!
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The Big Unit may have also caught that same bug this season. His ERA after 2 games is 11.42. It is still very early, and there are about 150 games left, but the 3 Sighs are a combined 0-4 with 22 earned runs in 21 innings for a 9.43 ERA.
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We need Posey! The only thing all of them have in common is the catcher. Put Molina at first base so you can keep his bat in there.
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Brilliant idea! That would add another decent bat, too.
Roy Gursky .. http://gurskyranch.com